thook

and, this is what i'm understanding. ^^^^

surely precision is optimal, but i can't see things always falling under precision when it comes to wheel building particularly in mass production. there has to be margins of error otherwise much of the mass produce wheelsets would fail more often than not. i'm sure some of them do. prime example of walmart; it's not where'd is shop for a bike. otoh, i've seen plenty of those still floating around and at the bike co-op with intact wheels

and, maybe, with hand built wheels and wheel parts of days past there was less acceptable margin. i surely wouldn't know. but, when i read about the DT nipples and the idea that the standard of a+/- 1mm margin could be slightly and safely surpassed, it sparked for me. splitting the difference on spoke lengths might just work. i have read more than once, depending on wheelset specs, people were able to reliably build with uniform spoke lengths all around. maybe the amount of dishing makes the difference? 126 OLD vs more modern perhaps? furthermore, i read brass nipples seem to be more forgiving

as for math and measurements being correct, embarrassingly enough, i have been measuring my current spokes wrong. i'd gone under direction from a couple of posts on a different sources on how to measure; from the center of the j bend to the end of the threads. sheldon brown corrected that for me. lesson learned. measuring from inside the j bend (making sense, of course) to the end, i get 301mm and about 302.5. not fudging to suits my desire, honest. i've measured and remeasured atleast a half a dozen times. i will likely even measure, again....lol

the take away for me is that i now fully understand what's going on and can make an educated decision. this opens up availability options on quality and pricing.i may even be able to go with some SS spokes. that'd be nice

thank you kindly all for your time, the input, and the schooling. now to find what i need. i am still interested, however, in anymore input anyone would like to offer in this discussion. learning never stops....ideally

ps. this wheelset will look so sweet on my univega GT (until i can get some double walls!). it'll be an almost aesthetically identical 700c version of the 27" set that originally came on the bike. but, it'll be 7spd instead of 5 with added benefit of hyperglide. plus, i can use my gravel king sk's......with gumwalls

thook

maybe this is why i'm reading about people mating sapim spokes with the DT nipples?

thook

exactly! i read brass > alum in terms of durability over weight savings, and the DT threading enabled marginally greater length discrepancy

52telecaster

I am not a master wheelbuilder by any stretch but i have built many wheels and almost never have a broken spoke in usage. I am 200lbs and i tour on my bikes so they get big loads. Now i am saying this because when i build wheels i usually buy db stainless sapim in whatever length the drive side rear calls for. All the rest of the spokes are then a tad short. This has never been a problem for me. Ymmv

thook

i've exhausted my brain remeasuring, but i'm consistently getting 302mm for the front and non drive of the rear and 301mm for the drive side. at this point, i'm having trouble deciding the better way to go; shorter or longer. if i went 302 all around, then 1mm of any protrusion into the rim tape can be filed. this would also allow me to just use 12mm nipples all around. but, will i run out of adjustable threads on the drive side as spokes stretch over time? i'm reading that side is more prone to it.

with either 301 or 302, i'm finding SS/DB spokes for the $40-$50 budget i've been trying to stick with in the amounts i actually need (72) with a few extra to keep around for potential repair.

would someone mind weighing in?

as an afterthought, i've mentioned these rims have no nipple ferrule. would it be a good idea to use something as reinforcement, if there is such a thing....like a washer/spacer? i realize this would affect the spoke length choice

edit: nevermind about washers

thook

in another/related development, i was just kinda checkin' out the wheels in question when i noticed the spoke heads don't even come flush to the flat head slot of the nipple. lacks about a 1mm on all spokes

thook

correction, they're 15g spokes on my wheels

dddd

It will be ok for the spokes to be a little short, with the rear driveside spokes coming up to the correct length.

The brass nipples are not prone to breakage from what I have seen, so I wouldn't worry about this if the nipples are of decent quality.

thook

thanks, dddd.

yeah, i think i understand what i'm seeing with these wheels. the spokes that don't come flush to the nipple slot are still the same length as the few that actually do. the ones that are flush would have to be so from owner truing/tightening to get there.

well, fortune on my side! i just arranged a deal with an ebay seller for 72 count of stainless spokes for the whopping price of $35 and change w/shipping in whatever lengths i need. maybe it isn't really uncommon, but i'm all giddy to find there's flexibility with the sellers on this. hadn't occurred to me it could be so. but, this means i can/should just go ahead and get specific lengths!! wouldn't you say?

oh, and fwiw....he uses a phil wood machine to cut his spokes

dddd

One thing that by itself can cause half of the spokes in the wheel to act longer than the rest of them is if there are "pairs" of spokes that are on opposite flanges and whose tangency points in opposite rotational directions and that are both either heads-in (tight spoke pair) or heads-out (lose spoke pair).
The heads-in position steals a bit of effective length from a spoke, so it's possible to have pairs of spokes that end up acting shorter than other pairs of spokes as described.
I've seen many production OEM wheels with "spoke length" fluctuation at the nipple because of a defective spoking pattern, which suggests that wheel production may have been farmed out to small sweat shops or even to home-based labor pools that perhaps employ young family members.

thook

ungh...sweat shops that's a deplorable affair

well, i'm not quite sure what spoke dynamic you're trying to illustrate. trying to imagine, but i don't have that going on. everything's normal in that regard. and, they're 2x laced, if that's makes any difference. typical shimano hubs/flanges, though...exage road. 300, i think. so, not great hubs, but they look the "classic" part with their slimmer profile (vs fat modern hubs). and, after all this time, the seals are still in great shape!! just need to clean/repack the bearings and grease the freehub

anyway, got the spokes ordered in 301 and 302mm lengths. i do have to order some nipples separately, still. nicely enough, this seller has some chromed brass ones

incidentally, is it forum legal to recommend ebay sellers?

thook

first, i just wanna thank everyone who's chimed in on my behalf here. i've learned a lot so far

second....well, my spokes arrived today and they are thinner. i ordered 15g and i'm sure that's what the seller sent, but they're thinner than my originals. so, probably the originals are 14g, afterall. as a result, the spokes are a tad on the shorter side compared to my original spokes in a side by side. can i still use these 15g?

maybe my metric calipers aren't quite so accurate, but the "flush" line didn't quite come to 2mm when i tried to gauge them so i figured they had to be 15g. bummer

thook

i used a different method of measuring...sans the calipers...and whew...the length is correct. still, the gauge is different. i even tried using a new 15g nipple on an old spoke and it won't thread on but for a few threads. an old nipple will thread onto a new spoke, but obviously it's going to

thook

i went ahead and laced one of the new spokes in on the ND side of the rear wheel. bear in mind, i'm cutting old and replacing with new one by one. at any rate, the length is working out great. but, due the gauge difference, is there any reason not to finish lacing? i've read about washers. do i need to do that?