Oslo: The Journey to Car Free
#176
Senior Member
Sure, the 8.5 million people who live in NYC obviously do not really have much choice to do otherwise-- there's far too many of'm to all drive to and park their own automobiles at most any place of possible employment so they either live close enough to walk or ride a bike to a job or take a cab or a train or some form of underground public conveyance. Nothing great about that lifestyle to many-- especially those who grew up in California when Disneyland was first built in Anaheim and probably thought if anything there'd be space-age monorails traversing such cities by now instead of herding people into crowded underground subways.
#177
Prefers Cicero
Sure, the 8.5 million people who live in NYC obviously do not really have much choice to do otherwise-- there's far too many of'm to all drive to and park their own automobiles at most any place of possible employment so they either live close enough to walk or ride a bike to a job or take a cab or a train or some form of underground public conveyance. Nothing great about that lifestyle to many-- especially those who grew up in California when Disneyland was first built in Anaheim and probably thought if anything there'd be space-age monorails traversing such cities by now instead of herding people into crowded underground subways.
#178
Sophomoric Member
I created a number of threads from the early 1900s using YouTube as a source. They were nothing more than to illustrate how society lived and prospered without motor transport 100 years ago. We can use the past to see our future because it seems many cities are slowly coming around and creating walk-able cities.
On a separate note, I'm glad this post reached six pages. I must have touched a nerve.
On a separate note, I'm glad this post reached six pages. I must have touched a nerve.
It does seem wise to look back to these pre-auto days for inspiration and guidance now that it's time to design cities for the post-auto age. I imagine that city planners in Oslo have looked at some of those same videos and photos as they plan for a post-auto city center. And this time they will leave out the cholera and manure!
Old photos from carfree.com:
Carfree.com: City Design
(Videos are also available on other parts of this fantastic website.)
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#179
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
It does seem wise to look back to these pre-auto days for inspiration and guidance now that it's time to design cities for the post-auto age. I imagine that city planners in Oslo have looked at some of those same videos and photos as they plan for a post-auto city center. And this time they will leave out the cholera and manure!
#180
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Groningen
Posts: 1,308
Bikes: Gazelle rod brakes, Batavus compact, Peugeot hybrid
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5991 Post(s)
Liked 956 Times
in
730 Posts
Sure, the 8.5 million people who live in NYC obviously do not really have much choice to do otherwise-- there's far too many of'm to all drive to and park their own automobiles at most any place of possible employment so they either live close enough to walk or ride a bike to a job or take a cab or a train or some form of underground public conveyance.
Nothing great about that lifestyle to many-- especially those who grew up in California when Disneyland was first built in Anaheim and probably thought if anything there'd be space-age monorails traversing such cities by now instead of herding people into crowded underground subways.
Those pre-industrial cities weren't designed for horse and buggy - only a few rich people had them - and in fact even in Julius Caesar's time, Rome had to restrict downtown carriage traffic because it was causing too much congestion. That's why historic European cities can so easily revert to a downtown car-free model - they were never designed for vehicular traffic in the first place.
That picture is taken after 1920, probably closer to 1930.
#181
Senior Member
That's the point of a city in the first place: as many people as possible in the same area at the same time by having short travels. The car has just been standing (and driving) in the way of the development of city life...
Of course cycling is much nicer than taking the subway, but if you don't like to be among lots of strangers city life just isn't for you
.
Of course cycling is much nicer than taking the subway, but if you don't like to be among lots of strangers city life just isn't for you
.
An obstacle has been those raised in the beehives of Old World thinking who came to a place like California to get away from the high-rise, elevator, rat race, fast-talking lifestyle and then corrupted the politics by stealing highway improvement monies and allowing dense building right up to the 'shores' of our highways, turning open spaces into the beehives that caused them to flee the big cities in the first place. The Jetsons is a good example of looking to a future that still allows for the independence of personal transportation. It's a fanciful notion given the technology, which is why we have and use automobiles but for many, personal transportation it's still a better lifestyle than looking down on the streets of a city from the 40th floor and see nothing but ribbons of yellow...
#182
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
In a lot of futuristic ideas in the past there was this idea that people should be as isolated from strangers as possible, but that's never been what city life is about. Of course cycling is much nicer than taking the subway, but if you don't like to be among lots of strangers city life just isn't for you.
An obstacle has been those raised in the beehives of Old World thinking who came to a place like California to get away from the high-rise, elevator, rat race, fast-talking lifestyle and then corrupted the politics by stealing highway improvement monies and allowing dense building right up to the 'shores' of our highways, turning open spaces into the beehives that caused them to flee the big cities in the first place. The Jetsons is a good example of looking to a future that still allows for the independence of personal transportation. It's a fanciful notion given the technology, which is why we have and use automobiles but for many, personal transportation it's still a better lifestyle than looking down on the streets of a city from the 40th floor and see nothing but ribbons of yellow...
But Dutch cities aren't dense and towering like NYC, Boston, London, Paris, Berlin, etc. I think.
#183
Senior Member
It seems pretty much, jam-packed. Even The Hague which is Netherlands 3rd third-largest city (after Amsterdam and neighboring Rotterdam) with its >500K population has a suburban area where >1M people live.
Interesting comparisons:
The Netherlands is tiny. But very full... it has a population of about 17 million people. Australia is huge. But it's almost empty. It's almost the same size as the contiguous United States, but it has only 22 million people
Last edited by McBTC; 05-18-17 at 08:11 PM.
#184
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
I think there are a lot of suburbs that are biking distance, so they're not that close to the city center, but also not that far.
California's 39M population may be more than 2x as large as Netherland's but Cali is also >11 times bigger. You also get a lot less square footage of living space per person in all of the old Euro cities. Many have a more car-intensive lifestyle than what the LCF movement approves but I wouldn't be surprised if many of them put a lot more miles a year on the bikes that they also own.
#185
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
This is often a subject I get interested in. The espoused reasoning seems to be the more dense a city is the easier and faster are the commute times. But I wonder if that is true in the US or even in the developed world? Have there been studies, surveys? Let us take a look. The forth one with the charts by country might be most interesting. Just a FYI.
California Commute Times Rank 10th Longest In US | HuffPost
Britain's average daily commute is ONE HOUR AND 38 MINUTES | Daily Mail Online
New York, D.C. Areas Have Worst Commute Times in the U.S. | Fortune.com
https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ommuters/?_r=0
Beijing workers have longest daily commute in China at 52 minutes each way | South China Morning Post
California Commute Times Rank 10th Longest In US | HuffPost
Britain's average daily commute is ONE HOUR AND 38 MINUTES | Daily Mail Online
New York, D.C. Areas Have Worst Commute Times in the U.S. | Fortune.com
https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ommuters/?_r=0
Beijing workers have longest daily commute in China at 52 minutes each way | South China Morning Post
#186
Senior Member
...
I think there are a lot of suburbs that are biking distance, so they're not that close to the city center, but also not that far.
From what I've read/seen, CA has 10-lane highways with congested traffic, and there are people who have multi-hour driving commutes to suburbs many miles from their workplace.
I think there are a lot of suburbs that are biking distance, so they're not that close to the city center, but also not that far.
From what I've read/seen, CA has 10-lane highways with congested traffic, and there are people who have multi-hour driving commutes to suburbs many miles from their workplace.
A lot of it boils down to state of mind and circumstances. In Southern California, for example, many who live in Carlsbad drive south to a job in Downtown San Diego, a distance of 35 miles (56 km)-- still in the same county but it would be like driving to work from Amsterdam to Rotterdam in Netherlands.
The Carlsbad commuter would spend a lot of time on the freeway if work was from 8A to 5P... probably more time than driving north for am 8A-5P job in Newport Beach in Orange county, a distance of 57 miles or 92 kilometers. The Carlsbad commuter headed north probably would get to work in less than an hour which could be less time than driving just a few miles for an 8A-5P job if you live and work in Los Angeles.
#187
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
A lot of it boils down to state of mind and circumstances. In Southern California, for example, many who live in Carlsbad drive south to a job in Downtown San Diego, a distance of 35 miles (56 km)-- still in the same county but it would be like driving to work from Amsterdam to Rotterdam in Netherlands.
The Carlsbad commuter would spend a lot of time on the freeway if work was from 8A to 5P... probably more time than driving north for am 8A-5P job in Newport Beach in Orange county, a distance of 57 miles or 92 kilometers. The Carlsbad commuter headed north probably would get to work in less than an hour which could be less time than driving just a few miles for an 8A-5P job if you live and work in Los Angeles.
The Carlsbad commuter would spend a lot of time on the freeway if work was from 8A to 5P... probably more time than driving north for am 8A-5P job in Newport Beach in Orange county, a distance of 57 miles or 92 kilometers. The Carlsbad commuter headed north probably would get to work in less than an hour which could be less time than driving just a few miles for an 8A-5P job if you live and work in Los Angeles.
I haven't spent much time in CA, but if it's anything like FL, there are small cultural barriers that go along way toward prevent small infrastructure/economic changes that would facilitate a much greater share for LCF, and thus less congestion and parking. Most people are used to taking their cars everywhere, and toting groceries etc. that way instead of carrying them in their arms, a cart, bike-trailer, etc. Also, a professional culture of long pants for men and uncomfortable, synthetic fabrics for women make it more difficult to walk or bike significant distances to work without changing and freshening up, which would be a deal-breaker for most people if they were overweighing giving up driving to LCF instead.
I hope we will see a continuing shift toward liberation from restrictive social-aesthetic standards that deter people from biking and walking for transportation. If people just felt more free to LCF, there could be so much positive infrastructure reform and consumer-lifestyle evolution that would make people and the environment healthier and happier. I'm glad Oslo seems to be seeing and spreading the light, but I hope large driving populations like CA and FL cities also shift toward much more LCF, because that would signal a lot of hope for a sustainable future, which would alleviate a lot of global economic/social tension that's built up from the seemingly unmanageable stubborness of modernity against broad and deep sustainability reform.
#188
Prefers Cicero
This is often a subject I get interested in. The espoused reasoning seems to be the more dense a city is the easier and faster are the commute times. But I wonder if that is true in the US or even in the developed world? Have there been studies, surveys? Let us take a look. The forth one with the charts by country might be most interesting. Just a FYI.
California Commute Times Rank 10th Longest In US | HuffPost
Britain's average daily commute is ONE HOUR AND 38 MINUTES | Daily Mail Online
New York, D.C. Areas Have Worst Commute Times in the U.S. | Fortune.com
https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ommuters/?_r=0
Beijing workers have longest daily commute in China at 52 minutes each way | South China Morning Post
California Commute Times Rank 10th Longest In US | HuffPost
Britain's average daily commute is ONE HOUR AND 38 MINUTES | Daily Mail Online
New York, D.C. Areas Have Worst Commute Times in the U.S. | Fortune.com
https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ommuters/?_r=0
Beijing workers have longest daily commute in China at 52 minutes each way | South China Morning Post
Last edited by cooker; 05-20-17 at 06:57 AM.
#189
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,965
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,530 Times
in
1,042 Posts
A lot of that is apples and oranges. One of your sources shows the commute is 5 minutes longer in New York than Oakland, but the New Yorker is much more likely to be using some combination of foot and public transit, so that extra 5 minutes, plus some of the time in common, is likely to be spent in exercise, reading, snoozing etc., none of which are available to the typical California driver.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/n...-to-limit.html
Subway delays increase as overcrowding spreads to weekend - NY Daily News
#190
Prefers Cicero
You have an idealized view of NYC subway commuting. It seems to be an apples and oranges version of the actual benefits many NYC commuters "enjoy" while commuting.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/n...-to-limit.html
Subway delays increase as overcrowding spreads to weekend - NY Daily News
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/n...-to-limit.html
Subway delays increase as overcrowding spreads to weekend - NY Daily News
#191
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
A lot of that is apples and oranges. One of your sources shows the commute is 5 minutes longer in New York than Oakland, but the New Yorker is much more likely to be using some combination of foot and public transit, so that extra 5 minutes, plus some of the time in common, is likely to be spent in exercise, reading, snoozing etc., none of which are available to the typical California driver. I was a bit surprised at how long the English commute are (they added both ways, so an hour and 38 minutes is 49 minutes each way), but again, a lot of them take the train and say they spend the time reading. Public transit users in California commute 47 minutes each ways so not that different. I didn't look at the methodologies in depth yet, so I don't know if there are other differences.
listening to fabulous surround-sound audio
talking hands-free on the phone
changing lanes
monitoring following distance
scanning as far ahead as possible for brake lights
watching pedestrian signals to anticipate traffic light changes before they happen
monitoring gauges to avoid speeding, running out of fuel, engine overheating, etc.
#192
Senior Member
...
shift toward much more LCF, because that would signal a lot of hope for a sustainable future, which would alleviate a lot of global economic/social tension that's built up from the seemingly unmanageable stubborness of modernity against broad and deep sustainability reform.
shift toward much more LCF, because that would signal a lot of hope for a sustainable future, which would alleviate a lot of global economic/social tension that's built up from the seemingly unmanageable stubborness of modernity against broad and deep sustainability reform.
So broad the individual is lost in your Utopic mélange. If working a 40 hour job and meeting up with an old friend for a game of racquetball before going home or squeezing in the time for a quick run before heading off to night classes at law school or hitting the surf at your favorite beach break before heading off to work in the morning requires a car and the job you hold pays enough to foot the bill, it's a sustainable lifestyle.
#193
Senior Member
True, true the pictures you posted look like steps we need to take to optimize the spread of winter cold and flu viruses... These pictures also remind me a time when Japan was riding high and we saw Japanese versions of American football linemen whose only job it was to shoulder passengers through the doors of crowded bullet trains, which is why at the same time -- before their economic meltdown -- a parking space in Tokyo sold for the equivalent of a million dollars. Sustainable perhaps but I imagine many who use public transportation do so because it is necessary and not because it is the most desirable option.
#194
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times
in
1,286 Posts
What about all the activities that drivers are doing during their commutes:
listening to fabulous surround-sound audio
talking hands-free on the phone
changing lanes
monitoring following distance
scanning as far ahead as possible for brake lights
watching pedestrian signals to anticipate traffic light changes before they happen
monitoring gauges to avoid speeding, running out of fuel, engine overheating, etc.
listening to fabulous surround-sound audio
talking hands-free on the phone
changing lanes
monitoring following distance
scanning as far ahead as possible for brake lights
watching pedestrian signals to anticipate traffic light changes before they happen
monitoring gauges to avoid speeding, running out of fuel, engine overheating, etc.
What about it ??.
#196
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
So broad the individual is lost in your Utopic mélange. If working a 40 hour job and meeting up with an old friend for a game of racquetball before going home or squeezing in the time for a quick run before heading off to night classes at law school or hitting the surf at your favorite beach break before heading off to work in the morning requires a car and the job you hold pays enough to foot the bill, it's a sustainable lifestyle.
So 'sustainable' is a weird term to use when sustainability requires limiting population growth. What's more, you need to secure resources for all the people living in the area, so the question is how long that area can sustain that lifestyle without depleting others elsewhere of resources they need to live 'sustainably.' So once you get into resource competition and population-limits, sustainability is not possible because how can you project an indefinite future for economic culture that requires resource-competition and population-control? Isn't such a culture ultimately doomed to consume its resource-base and population into extinction?
As I read back over this post, it's getting very P&R. Should we split this thread and move this portion to P&R?
#197
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times
in
1,286 Posts
If colds and flu wasn't bad enough... it was recently discovered that the air quality and pollution in the underground subway tunnels in Toronto is really bad. Then there are all kinds of low lifes and unruly passengers who have absolutely no etiquette.
#198
Senior Member
Agreed because you describe a "beggar-thy-neighbor" understanding of economic policy whereby one person's success worsens the problems of everyone else, as opposed to a philosophy of a "thousand points of light" that flows from an abundance of spirit (a concept that is so easily lampooned by the establishment of unelected deep-state bureaucrats and politically correct hypocrites) and, "a rising tide raises all boats" understanding of macroeconomics, based on recognition and respect for individual liberty, personal responsibility and a free market for goods, services and ideas, which are not topics for bike forums and yet it seem to underlie the LCF movement.
#199
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
A lot of that is apples and oranges. One of your sources shows the commute is 5 minutes longer in New York than Oakland, but the New Yorker is much more likely to be using some combination of foot and public transit, so that extra 5 minutes, plus some of the time in common, is likely to be spent in exercise, reading, snoozing etc., none of which are available to the typical California driver. I was a bit surprised at how long the English commute are (they added both ways, so an hour and 38 minutes is 49 minutes each way), but again, a lot of them take the train and say they spend the time reading. Public transit users in California commute 47 minutes each ways so not that different. I didn't look at the methodologies in depth yet, so I don't know if there are other differences.
As I posted it is a FYI feel free to ignore the links. Statements have been made that commuting times would be less in highly dense cities and people would be happier. I couldn't find surveys and studies supporting the Yet people in China still seem more willing to commute than not and their time is higher than LA. Their concerns are as some here have and the quote in the British link I found amusing. But I have made my choice and my views are known. So it is just a FYI over the "it should be statements" made so often earlier. The Quote from the British link:" The most annoying bugbear for commuters is when fellow passengers have their music on too loud, with 26 per cent of those surveyed saying that, closely followed by 21 per cent who can't stand people smelling badly."
I didn't say it the link did. And I have visited some of the cities mentioned. Seems about right to me.
Last edited by Mobile 155; 05-20-17 at 02:09 PM.
#200
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
Agreed because you describe a "beggar-thy-neighbor" understanding of economic policy whereby one person's success worsens the problems of everyone else, as opposed to a philosophy of a "thousand points of light" that flows from an abundance of spirit (a concept that is so easily lampooned by the establishment of unelected deep-state bureaucrats and politically correct hypocrites) and, "a rising tide raises all boats" understanding of macroeconomics, based on recognition and respect for individual liberty, personal responsibility and a free market for goods, services and ideas, which are not topics for bike forums and yet it seem to underlie the LCF movement.
I think it was you, however, who started comparing driving-sprawl California with Dutch cities and then talking about how the freedom to drive 100s of miles per day is sustainable if you can afford it, etc. The only thing I had said about Dutch cities, originally, was that I didn't think they were that dense compared with skyscraper cities like NYC, Boston, etc. or even London, Berlin, and Paris. I think Dutch geography is basically a lot of suburban sprawl, only the suburbs are more bikeable and within bikeable distance of more other suburbs and one or more city centers. I.e. it's not like everyone lives in dense downtown areas, but yet people can still get around and commute by bike from their suburban neighborhoods where they live.