moth54

Greetings

Normally I just lurk here. Today I am out of the shadows.

Cycling north across campus, in the east lane. Student on a skateboard going downhill south on the sidewalk elects to exit from a driveway into the same east lane, but alas, in the opposite direction. He didn't see me because of parked cars obstructing vision. And I saw him not quite in time to avoid him.

He collides with me head on.

The good news: it could have been worse, much worse. My bike took the impact and probably saved us both from worse injury. It crumpled much like modern car hoods are designed to crumple in accidents. And no cars were coming up behind to drive over us both as we lay in the street.

The bad news: He's got a broken nose, I've got a swollen gashed elbow, both wheels on my bike are taco'd, chainwheel broken, and I dunno about the frame.

I started to yell at him (what were you thinking, this is a TWO WAY street!) but oh hell, he's not much more than a kid, 18-19, and his nose is bleeding and likely bust (he broke it once before). A good samaratin (sp?) drove him to the ER.

I filed a police report, called my insurance agent, and likely am going to say goodbye to the bike as I don't think I can trust the frame.

I'm a little shaky right now.

But I know there's gotta be people here who went through a smash. Any advice?

Rootman

Glad to hear you're OK. It's been a good long time since I wiped out, I DO however recommend seeing a doctor as sometimes these things can become a LOT worse than you think. The last time I fell I hit my head and had a concussion, all I wanted to do was go home and lay down - BAD IDEA. My parents (that's how long ago this was, I was a kid) took me to the emergency room and I had an Xray which was clear but they held me all day for observation and I got to go home that night.

I wish you well friend.

Lacumo

Actually, I think you're kind of lucky because that really wasn't a bad one. Either you or that mindless kid could have ended up in a long-term coma on life support. What happened to your bike is truly unfortunate, but on a scale of 1 to 10, I don't think this one is even a 3... I hope I don't seem dismissive or unsympathetic, but either you or the idiot kid could've ended up in a really bad way. On a closing note -- about the kid being "...not much more than a kid, 18-19, and his nose is bleeding..." -- 18 is old enough to vote or join the military and it's "the age of legal majority." The "kid" is theoretically an adult and is subject to all the responsibilities an expectations that come with adulthood. I have zero sympathy for him and if a bloody, broken nose is all he got, then he didn't get anywhere near what he earned.

moth54

Rootman

Your advice re seeking med attention is good, I doubt I'm concussed as I don't feel sleepy but spouse will keep an eye on that.

I thank you for sharing the experience of your accident, it reminds me that I wasn't singled out by some Powerful Being Bent on Vengeance for I know not quite what.

Oddly enough I feel quite badly for the kid, even though it was his fault. He was more in shock than I was. There's something to say for getting older (not much, I grant you, but one does get perspective.)

moth54

Lacumo

Well, when I post on a forum, I do so at my own risk, and must take what comes my way. I think I acknowledged in my original post that it could have been worse, much worse.

Yes, he's of legal age, but very few of us went through youth without doing something stupid, the difference lies in whether we got caught in life's wheel. In addition I suppose it's because two family members of around that age didn't get any older as a result of their respective accidents, that I am in the shock I am in. Both of those incidents were around this time of year, and although both were a long time ago, I think this incident put me in mind of them.

Does anyone know if it is true that late August/early September are statistically bad times as a whole?

volosong

Don't discuss particulars of the accident on a public forum. At least this is what they say over in the A&S sub-forum.

wphamilton

yep that's risky. What if the kid winds up in the hospital and the discussion is misconstrued (although we can tell that OP is sympathetic to the kid). There have been some recent cases where a prosecutor used internet postings against the cyclist (or driver in some cases).

Get well, and let's pick it apart after all is said and done but right now there are mine-fields between being objective and rational and also having compassion.

ModeratedUser150120149

No problem with discussing at the detail mentioned here as long as it does not disagree with what was put in police and insurance reports. Where we get in trouble and what prompted the warning on another forum in this site was analysis and blame pointing that was not already part of the public record. That could be hazardous to a person's financial and emotional health.

One point, just an opinion, like most everything on this web site, is calling an 18-19 year old a "kid". Today, except for some specific exclusions, an 18 year old is an adult. The person is an adult with the same rights and responsibilities as any of us elders, unless we have entered into a guardianship relationship, of course. In which case the 18 y/o has more responsibility. My experience is that it is very important to remember the relationship is between two adults with opposing legal position.

The advise to get a medical exam yourself is good. It might be very helpful for a variety of reasons. I also almost demand the other person get a prompt medical exam. In several cases I am personally familiar with the medical exam saved the day when further injuries were claimed. In any case it may be months before all the physical consequences of this incident are known. Insurance companies can be picky and claims complicated. Don't want there to be any question what the timing and cause of the injuries were.

Wish you well in your healing. Hurting, to say the least, is no fun!

B. Carfree

I lost far too many friends who were in their teens and early twenties due to just the type of careless, impulsive behavior described in the OP to not be impressed by the compassion and concern shown by the OP. He made a mistake, and thankfully the injuries are likely of the sort that will heal in short order. The last skateboarder who made such a mistake here where I live spent several weeks in the hospital being put back together because the motorist who hit him didn't look for "pedestrians" entering the crosswalk.

moth54

Well, HawkOwl, you'll be pleased to know that while I have not lost perspective, I'm less sympathetic today.
; - )

I woke up this morning and was reminded that when one is 50 plus, falling off a bike is not recommended, especially with help from a skateboarder. I can quite see your point about being checked out medically, although in this case I think I'm going to get away with bruising and strained muscles, although a lot more of both than I would like. Even with whacked nose, skateboarder may well heal faster than yours truly.

Lessons to pass on: ask for a driver's license. I asked for an i.d. and in the shock the moment accepted something that is better than nothing, but not as good as a driver's license. I'm not interested in going after him, but good documentation is important: even with no motor vehicles involved, this is classed where I live as a motor vehicle accident. I did have pen and paper with me, and that archaic technology at least is less likely to break on impact than something more sophisticated.

Lesson two: start carrying a cellphone. (Most probably don't need this lesson, being less than a Luddite than me.)

What I did right:
I got the name and number of the people who drove him to the ER. Nobody saw the incident directly, but they can at least affirm I didn't leave the scene until the person most evidently injured, got assistance.

I filed a police report (not to go after the guy, but to ensure that the record was straight, especially when injuries are involved. ) It seemed a minor incident, but someone did go to the ER, and in any case, it is best to get the record straight where even minor injuries are sustained.
I contacted my insurance people right away.
I iced my elbow - although I should have iced just about every place I even suspected of injury, because man, am I stiff and sore today.

And I have no intention of stopping riding. The bike, eh, that's a question mark. But we shall see.

Thanks all for taking the time to hear me out. Oh, and be careful out there!

qcpmsame 

+1, Site Administrator, Tom Stormcrowe, has a warning, asking that we not discuss things that have even the potential for legal action here, that he stickied a while back at the top of a forum. Words for the wise. It does seem you covered most of your bases though, well done for thinking quickly and clearly after a shaking experience.

Glad you or the young man were not injured any worse, too bad about your bike. I hope it is replaced for you, in full. Hope you are feeling better soon and that the insurance comes through for you.

Bill

NOS88

Two summers ago I hit a Labrador Retriever broadside that was not on a lead and suddenly darted away from the owner to chase a squirrel. At the time I wasn't going to go after the owner (young man in early 20s). Six trips to a Retina specialist and $3,000 later to repair a tear in the Retina caused by the impact and I had different thoughts. These days, I don't think I'd leave the scene without lots of detailed information from the other person. I'd also take lots of photos with my smart phone.

Sorry you had to go through this.

Yankeetowner

Good advice not to talk about the details of this incident on a public forum. Since no motor vehicles were involved you should have notified your home owners insurance company as well as your auto insurance company (notify any excess carriers as well if you have an umbrella policy). Talk to no one other than your insurance company(s) and their adjusters (plus their/your attorney should a lawsuit be filed). I would get and keep a copy of the police report, and take photographs of your bike and the scene of the incident for my own protection. For your own protection remember everything that the young man said afterwards, and write it down to record your recollections.

ModeratedUser150120149

Reads like you did the best under the circumstances. It is tough to think through all the downstream ramifications of an incident like this. Especially tough when you are dealing with another injured person.

As far as ID is concerned you just have to take what you can get when a motor vehicle is not involved. For example; I don't carry a drivers license when I ride a bike. But, most people should be able to produce a government/school issued picture ID.

What you have posted here is nothing more than what is in the police report, which is public record. You have used discretion in your recitation. Where people get in trouble is when they start disclosing details that affect liability and not public or making assumptions like we so often do. Best to not post at all but if you must this probably is pretty innocuous.

Your mistake in trying to "be nice" and not get enough to get paid for your medical costs and your bike may come back to haunt you. But you are not the first or last person to do that.

Heal well and glad you are still up for riding.

ModeratedUser150120149

The advice to notify all your insurance companies is excellent. Many people don't realize it but many times it is the insurance company taking action in your name, which you agreed to in the insurance contract, that drives everything.

When I was hit, injured and my bike damaged by another cyclist my medical provider was going to sue the other cyclist to recover their costs. Fortunately I had notified them and had all the other cyclist's particulars. Plus, lucky for me, he wanted to be a nice guy and accepted full liability. Not notifying the insurance company is a violation of the contract in many cases and could result in you paying your own bills.

A memory from the past: A friend in the insurance pricing business told me they charge higner rates to "nice" people and those in occupations that attract them. Strictly business. The company is in business to make money. Nice people bring more liability losses.

Wogster

Maybe it's a US thing, but it's pretty pathetic that when there is an accident all people think about is suing and getting sued.....

Bikes can actually take a lot before they are damaged beyond repair, especially steel frames. As for injuries, as long as everyone heals up fine, it's no big deal.

gcottay

I suggest imagining that the skateboarder has a close relative who is an attorney of the lowest kind who failed the bar thrice but is exceptionally gifted in twisting words. With that in mind, review and edit your posts and, if necessary, seek Tom's help in making this whole thread go away. There's no need to add trouble to your injuries and losses.

moth54

The advice in the Advocacy and Safety Forum is to "limit your disclosure in the forums" and as HawkOwl has pointed out, the best definition of 'limitation of disclosure' is to stick to the facts as one has reported them to the police and the insurance companies, i.e. the public record. Not just to avoid possible legal problems, but because keeping clear to oneself and others about facts is a way of self calming during stressful situations.

I do not consider philosophizing about perspective in general, or about the vicissitudes of life in general, as speculation about a specific accident. Again, providing one doesn't speculate about the specific event, such philosophizing can be useful. Practice in keeping perspective helps keep one calm both during a shocking experience and immediately afterward; it helps one focus on priorities. Forget about blame and shame, either towards the other party or oneself, focus on getting third party assistance (medical help, police) that is both more objective and expert than oneself, in order to fix any injuries as best as can be done, and to help keep the accident from causing problems for people coming up behind. Doing the right thing under pressure means just that, taking action, not just cowering or worse yet retreating because one is overwhelmed by paranoia.

So while I welcome criticism and advice as to what should or should not be posted, especially since I completely respect that forum use involves following forum rules, may I point out that the best advice references wise procedure, which is, what to do at such times. Speculation about what a lawyer might do is as speculative, and thus as unhelpful, as speculating why something happened or the value of medical costs or whatever. Similarly what happens to 'nice' people doesn't point one in the direction of wise solutions: 'nice' is not definitive, it is too vague a term, and in any case speculating about what happens to nice people is speculative.

I do note that my discussion of injuries is partly editorial since I am not a doctor and even if I were, self diagnosis is not as reliable as a third party evaluating oneself or the other party. The correct way to describe an injury by a lay person is not 'broken nose' but 'profuse bleeding from nostrils for more than five minutes.' The correct way to describe oneself is 'no apparent injuries beyond bruising' because the 'apparent' will help remind oneself, let alone others, to be vigilant in the first couple of days. Even mere bruising is best overtreated in the early stages: I now wish I'd iced almost everywhere, because today I find bruises appearing like mushrooms.

The thing is, folks, that while it is important to distinguish speculation from facts, and to refrain from armchair quarterbacking at the best of times, paranoia isn't our friend, either.

wphamilton

Well, if you just want procedural advice from people who've been through a smash, without speculation regarding legal dangers, here's what I did in a similar situation. About a year and a half ago, a recreational cyclist came flying down the MUP, passing a slow family group on a blind curve, he didn't have the experience or skills to handle it and panicked, plowing into me coming from the other direction. Almost completely his fault - I had a taco'd wheel and a six inch gash in my forearm.

I told him to forget about it, we went our separate ways and that was the end of it. I bought a new wheel, taped up my arm and after awhile everything was OK again. No police reports, no insurance, no liability no courts. I don't know his name and wouldn't recognize him if I saw him again. I think that was pretty much a best case solution, a positive trade-off between soaking his insurance for medical and repair bills versus the disruption in both our lives of pursuing it.

Yankeetowner

You asked for advice, people gave advice, but you don't have to follow it.

By the way, statements and information given to YOUR insurance company are not public record, although your statement to the police usually is public record.

NOS88

Perhaps the difference lies in part because of the differences in health care systems? (And, NO, this is not an attempt to start a political discussion about the merits of different systems. It is just an observation that arose as I thought about your post.)

ModeratedUser150120149

Well said.

As an aside, my comment about insurance rates and "nice" people as reported to me by the person why establishes those rates is real, although primarily occupational.

moth54

You are completely correct, I did indeed ask for advice.

And I do appreciate people taking the time to reply.

What I took rather a long time to say in my last post was that it is a challenge to get the balance right. Caution and thoroughness are important, particularly (nod to NOS88) when this is the only way to cover medical costs. On the other hand we don't want to be so fearful of legal consequences, that we don't discuss accidents at all. It is hard to phrase this without sounding ungrateful for what I did receive, and I ask people try to see past my clumsiness and see the point I was trying to make.

Hawkowl, I do see your point: to talk about insurance systems is along the lines of philosophizing, and a fair cop.

wphamilton, I am sorry to hear about your accident. You do raise an interesting point - the cost of disrupting one's life.

But making a police report needn't be seen as solely part of a process of settlement, but of education. Each accident reported helps them establish patterns, of what kinds of mistakes people are making, of the circumstances in which an accident occurs that might lead, say, to better MUP markings or different standards of a different type. And as I stressed to the officer who interviewed me, I hoped the patrol that was dedicated to the area near the campus, would emphasize to students the huge risks of shooting off sidewalks into streets when on a skateboard. As on a bike, a sudden change to the line of travel is not a wise move. If I had been a car, his parents would be possibly taking him home in a box. Again, at this time of year I am reminded of young family members lost.

Insurance agents, ditto. If they make money, it's because they're dishing out less on claims, which come to think of it, is in a way, the situation we want. We want our claim settled, but most of all we don't want to have to be making or even deliberating making one in the first place. I've seen some great ads by the local Workman's Compensation Board, in the service of reducing accidents.

On a side note, your conclusion that your other party panicked reminds me of the phenomenon first studied during World War II - of pilots so fixated on their targets, they not only shot/bombed those targets, they flew right into them. It sounds like your counterparty did the same thing - he drove into the object upon which he was fixated - you.

wphamilton

I'm a little more cynical about police reports than you - I think they're used by the courts and insurance companies to help assign fault and liability, and that data-mining them is problematic with respect to accuracy, therefore relatively rare. However, I've seen locally that serious accidents and public outcry do tend to produce changes. Again, I'm cynical enough to believe that it has to do with potential liability. In the past several years I've seen extensive safety improvements on our Greenway. Clearing around dangerous corners, huge mirrors, warning signs, extensions, and excellent timely maintenance. Four years ago an elderly lady - very accomplished cyclist- was hospitalized after a colliding with some riders moving fast, going around a combined corner/intersection. Unfortunately she passed away in the hospital. While commuting and just riding I've seen the paramedics on four occasions. I think these accidents are the impetus for our changes, because many of the improvements were related to the those situations.

As you mentioned, the skate boarder could as easily have been killed if he pulled that stunt in front of a truck instead. If you make that known at city hall and perhaps the campus I'll bet you'd see some action of some kind.

Lacumo

I know this may be semi-off-subject, but I thought it (at least peripherally) germane to the subject of bicycle-skateboard collisions... I caught a local newspaper website piece on a skateboard-car collision today. Three things about it caught my attention--- the skateboarder was 50 years old, the car was a NYS Police vehicle and the skateboarder didn't survive the incident.

September 20, 2013
TANNERSVILLE - A 50-year-old man riding a skateboard died when he collided with a State Police cruiser, troopers said. Bernard B. Hamilton died after the 11:38 p.m. impact Thursday on Route 23A. State Police said Hamilton was riding a skateboard in Hill Road when he rolled into the intersection with Route 23A and the path of a trooper's car, which was westbound on Route 23A. Hamilton was declared dead at the scene. Troopers have revealed few other details about the death and say the investigation is continuing.

Route 23A is a main NY State route in a rural area and it isn't a road that a prudent cyclist would just go shooting out into without carefully looking both ways first. We obviously don't know all the details about this accident, but I'm starting to develop some serious questions about the level of safety-consciousness in the skateboarding community.