Winter Conditioning: How best to maximise Weight and Hill training into program (?)
07-24-15, 03:15 PM
#26
Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter
FWIW my on the bike rpm increased when I stopped worrying about "full circles" and just concentrated on high rpm pedal smashing (all quad).
I think my best was 218~220rpm on the rollers?
I think my best was 218~220rpm on the rollers?
07-25-15, 03:14 PM
#27
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks for the links Dalai. The second one is particularly good. And reinforces the value of weights, posterior chain work - and hip flexor work. The hip flexor excercises make sense if you think about it, given the huge strength we strive to build up in quads, butt, hammies = And given that we strive to better our technique, pedalling efficiency by pedalling in circles - which includes the quadrant of force excerted around the top of the pedal stroke - and the need to balance lifting the hips strength and force output , with the rest of the power cycle.
Thanks too you your comment Carleton. Mucho appreciato.
But I divert from MY THREADS REal Purpose: To seek input from Elite / A grade spinters on Winter Conditioning:
So, lets talk "Steady Slope, steady state reps " Not hills, not sprints, but steady state reps on an even slope. Say, 3 x 2 mins, 3 x 1 minutes, followed by 3 x 30 seconds - and adding volume of reps over the weeks, as ones ability to maintain steady state speed increases.
Assumptions: Base miles are already under the belt, Talking here about undertaking a 3 month, conditioning period, finishing 2 months out from the main championships (which will be in Feb 2016) - i.e. before the "real" track work. Third season racer (B grade), with 8 months of solid squats, deadlifts, single leg squats etc. Wanting to break into "A" grade regional level, and have a crack at medals in the 55 - 6- age-group nats.
- Does this steady state slop work result in the same (physiological effect) as "big gear work" ?
- How many times a week works well?
- will progressive volumes of these reps directly translate into faster trackspeed for the medium track races.?
- How many national level masters use this sort of training in their off season buildup?
Rationale: There is a lot of talk about weights, which of course we need for fast starts, and from which to develop real, short, highest intensity sprints to the line. But of course most of the races we undertake on the track are (high level) endurance in nature, cos we cant max out on our efforts for longer than 10 seconds or so. So, arent "steady state, threshhold (under and overs) slope reps" an ideal way to develop this higher speed ??
Principles and experience please chaps
Thanks too you your comment Carleton. Mucho appreciato.
But I divert from MY THREADS REal Purpose: To seek input from Elite / A grade spinters on Winter Conditioning:
So, lets talk "Steady Slope, steady state reps " Not hills, not sprints, but steady state reps on an even slope. Say, 3 x 2 mins, 3 x 1 minutes, followed by 3 x 30 seconds - and adding volume of reps over the weeks, as ones ability to maintain steady state speed increases.
Assumptions: Base miles are already under the belt, Talking here about undertaking a 3 month, conditioning period, finishing 2 months out from the main championships (which will be in Feb 2016) - i.e. before the "real" track work. Third season racer (B grade), with 8 months of solid squats, deadlifts, single leg squats etc. Wanting to break into "A" grade regional level, and have a crack at medals in the 55 - 6- age-group nats.
- Does this steady state slop work result in the same (physiological effect) as "big gear work" ?
- How many times a week works well?
- will progressive volumes of these reps directly translate into faster trackspeed for the medium track races.?
- How many national level masters use this sort of training in their off season buildup?
Rationale: There is a lot of talk about weights, which of course we need for fast starts, and from which to develop real, short, highest intensity sprints to the line. But of course most of the races we undertake on the track are (high level) endurance in nature, cos we cant max out on our efforts for longer than 10 seconds or so. So, arent "steady state, threshhold (under and overs) slope reps" an ideal way to develop this higher speed ??
Principles and experience please chaps
Last edited by DHRB45; 07-25-15 at 07:04 PM.
07-26-15, 04:10 PM
#28
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I actually incorporate Power Single Leg Presses in my program. I find them to be very useful! They are functionally similar to Step Ups, but using a 45 degree leg press sled, you can add more than your body weight and have a more controlled movement.
Single Leg Press (for strength) and Single Power Leg Press (for power) are the basis of the program that I created for myself. I can't say that it's *better* than traditional squats and power cleans. But, I *can* say that it is not worse
I personally think it's better being that we use our legs independently of each other when we ride our bikes.
I did train knee lifts for strength using a hip flexor machine one season. I was maxing it out after about 2-3 weeks.
My goal was to have my hip flexors aid with turning over big gears during standing starts and getting the bike up to max speed. (like others above) I can't say that it made my cycling any better. I'd recommend such as a supplemental exercise. Basically: Train these muscles so that you don't pull one one day and be sidelined by a small muscle tear, but don't expect any notable performance gains.
As mentioned above as well, at high cadences, the real goal is to keep your back leg from being dead weight that works against the front leg.
Single Leg Press (for strength) and Single Power Leg Press (for power) are the basis of the program that I created for myself. I can't say that it's *better* than traditional squats and power cleans. But, I *can* say that it is not worse
I personally think it's better being that we use our legs independently of each other when we ride our bikes.
I did train knee lifts for strength using a hip flexor machine one season. I was maxing it out after about 2-3 weeks.
My goal was to have my hip flexors aid with turning over big gears during standing starts and getting the bike up to max speed. (like others above) I can't say that it made my cycling any better. I'd recommend such as a supplemental exercise. Basically: Train these muscles so that you don't pull one one day and be sidelined by a small muscle tear, but don't expect any notable performance gains.
As mentioned above as well, at high cadences, the real goal is to keep your back leg from being dead weight that works against the front leg.
But hey .. Would really, like really like to know more about your single leg presses please: what works and what doesnt .. Thanx!
07-26-15, 04:40 PM
#29
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What value Single - Leg press: What works and what doesnt (?)
What value do you guys place on "Alternate Single Leg press" - like in Anna Meares in the vid: (starts at 42 seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esVs3TvqjMA also
Is there any merit in "Very high rep" single leg presses? - say, sets of 35 to 45 reps ??
Would these assist in the flying 200, or sprint events you recon ? And, of course, I am thinking about possible localised muscular endurance training effect - rather than the cardio side of energy systems.
Or perhaps there is value in doing sets of doing (sub) sets of single leg presses. e.g. doing 6 right single leg presses, then immediately doing 6 left single leg presses - then immediately repeating - so that the total number of leg presses matches the total number of leg rotations that you would do in a flying 200 metres, or target "final sprint".
Any merit ? Has anybody tried them?? Doe the benefits result in a reduction of race times ??? Cheers !
What value do you guys place on "Alternate Single Leg press" - like in Anna Meares in the vid: (starts at 42 seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esVs3TvqjMA also
Is there any merit in "Very high rep" single leg presses? - say, sets of 35 to 45 reps ??
Would these assist in the flying 200, or sprint events you recon ? And, of course, I am thinking about possible localised muscular endurance training effect - rather than the cardio side of energy systems.
Or perhaps there is value in doing sets of doing (sub) sets of single leg presses. e.g. doing 6 right single leg presses, then immediately doing 6 left single leg presses - then immediately repeating - so that the total number of leg presses matches the total number of leg rotations that you would do in a flying 200 metres, or target "final sprint".
Any merit ? Has anybody tried them?? Doe the benefits result in a reduction of race times ??? Cheers !
07-26-15, 11:01 PM
#30
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Hey, man. You are asking us to write a program for you
Pro Tip: There is no Best Training Program.
There is only: The Best Training Program for Me.
I know athletes who:
- Lift weights 90% of the time
- Ride road 95% track 5%
- Ride track 100%
- Train on spin bikes 90% and track 10%
- Do nothing
Then there are those who do:
- Low Bar Back Squat
- High Bar Back Squat
- Front Squat
- Leg Press
- Plyometrics
- Yoga
- Hill Sprints
- No Weights
And all kick ass
The key to all of this is finding the program that works for you. That's the journey.
We simply can't answer questions like these for you:
No one can.
This is all theoretical.
When in doubt, do what others who are better/faster than you are doing. If that doesn't work, do something else. Rinse, repeat. You'll eventually find things that work and don't work.
"One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions." ― Wernher von Braun
So true.
Also, we can't do what Anna Meares does unless we've also done what she's done for the 20 years leading up to now. Further, the more you learn about the training programs of elites, the more you'll see what I'm saying above...they are *all* different. Even among teammates!
Pro Tip: There is no Best Training Program.
There is only: The Best Training Program for Me.
I know athletes who:
- Lift weights 90% of the time
- Ride road 95% track 5%
- Ride track 100%
- Train on spin bikes 90% and track 10%
- Do nothing
Then there are those who do:
- Low Bar Back Squat
- High Bar Back Squat
- Front Squat
- Leg Press
- Plyometrics
- Yoga
- Hill Sprints
- No Weights
And all kick ass
The key to all of this is finding the program that works for you. That's the journey.
We simply can't answer questions like these for you:
Is there any merit in "Very high rep" single leg presses? - say, sets of 35 to 45 reps ??
Would these assist in the flying 200, or sprint events you recon ? And, of course, I am thinking about possible localised muscular endurance training effect - rather than the cardio side of energy systems.
Or perhaps there is value in doing sets of doing (sub) sets of single leg presses. e.g. doing 6 right single leg presses, then immediately doing 6 left single leg presses - then immediately repeating - so that the total number of leg presses matches the total number of leg rotations that you would do in a flying 200 metres, or target "final sprint".
Would these assist in the flying 200, or sprint events you recon ? And, of course, I am thinking about possible localised muscular endurance training effect - rather than the cardio side of energy systems.
Or perhaps there is value in doing sets of doing (sub) sets of single leg presses. e.g. doing 6 right single leg presses, then immediately doing 6 left single leg presses - then immediately repeating - so that the total number of leg presses matches the total number of leg rotations that you would do in a flying 200 metres, or target "final sprint".
This is all theoretical.
When in doubt, do what others who are better/faster than you are doing. If that doesn't work, do something else. Rinse, repeat. You'll eventually find things that work and don't work.
"One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions." ― Wernher von Braun
So true.
Also, we can't do what Anna Meares does unless we've also done what she's done for the 20 years leading up to now. Further, the more you learn about the training programs of elites, the more you'll see what I'm saying above...they are *all* different. Even among teammates!
07-27-15, 02:09 AM
#31
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Chuckle. Thanks Carlton. But I really do wonder whether there is particular merit in doing single-leg presses in the manner I was describing
07-27-15, 08:32 AM
#32
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Do low reps in the gym. High reps on the bike.
And as I write that, I'm sure that someone does that very workout and it works wonders for them
07-27-15, 05:30 PM
#33
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thinking, is there a sound physiological reason why high rep (say, 35 - 45) single leg-presses dont work? Perhaps you have tried it, and found that it didnt contribute towards quicker times. Or .. (you knew I was going to say that eh
Last edited by DHRB45; 07-27-15 at 05:57 PM. Reason: make my question clearer
07-27-15, 07:37 PM
#34
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Thanks Carleton. And, of course, I am real interested in "the Long answer".
Thinking, is there a sound physiological reason why high rep (say, 35 - 45) single leg-presses dont work? Perhaps you have tried it, and found that it didnt contribute towards quicker times. Or .. (you knew I was going to say that eh
Thinking, is there a sound physiological reason why high rep (say, 35 - 45) single leg-presses dont work? Perhaps you have tried it, and found that it didnt contribute towards quicker times. Or .. (you knew I was going to say that eh
https://www.amazon.com/Periodization-...dization+bompa
About Bompa:
Tudor O. Bompa, PhD, revolutionized Western training methods when he introduced his groundbreaking theory of periodization in Romania in 1963. After adopting his training system, the Eastern Bloc countries dominated international sports through the 1970s and 1980s. In 1988, Dr. Bompa applied his principle of periodization to the sport of bodybuilding. He has personally trained 11 Olympic medalists (including four gold medalists) and has served as a consultant to coaches and athletes worldwide.
Dr. Bompa's books on training methods, including "Theory and Methodology of Training: The Key to Athletic Performance" and "Periodization of Training for Sports," have been translated into 17 languages and used in more than 130 countries for training athletes and educating and certifying coaches. Bompa has been invited to speak about training in more than 30 countries and has been awarded certificates of honor and appreciation from such prestigious organizations as the Argentinean Ministry of Culture, the Australian Sports Council, the Spanish Olympic Committee, and the International Olympic Committee.
A member of the Canadian Olympic Association and the Romanian National Council of Sports, Dr. Bompa is professor emeritus at York University, where he has taught training theories since 1987. He and his wife, Tamara, live in Sharon, Ontario
Dr. Bompa's books on training methods, including "Theory and Methodology of Training: The Key to Athletic Performance" and "Periodization of Training for Sports," have been translated into 17 languages and used in more than 130 countries for training athletes and educating and certifying coaches. Bompa has been invited to speak about training in more than 30 countries and has been awarded certificates of honor and appreciation from such prestigious organizations as the Argentinean Ministry of Culture, the Australian Sports Council, the Spanish Olympic Committee, and the International Olympic Committee.
A member of the Canadian Olympic Association and the Romanian National Council of Sports, Dr. Bompa is professor emeritus at York University, where he has taught training theories since 1987. He and his wife, Tamara, live in Sharon, Ontario
Last edited by carleton; 07-27-15 at 07:43 PM.
07-28-15, 05:16 AM
#35
Senior Member
What value Single - Leg press: What works and what doesnt (?)
Is there any merit in "Very high rep" single leg presses? - say, sets of 35 to 45 reps ??
Would these assist in the flying 200, or sprint events you recon ? And, of course, I am thinking about possible localised muscular endurance training effect - rather than the cardio side of energy systems.
Is there any merit in "Very high rep" single leg presses? - say, sets of 35 to 45 reps ??
Would these assist in the flying 200, or sprint events you recon ? And, of course, I am thinking about possible localised muscular endurance training effect - rather than the cardio side of energy systems.
The upshot? It was NTFU (next to f******* useless). The idea was endurance conditioning, but because rowing is a strength endurance sport the time would have been better spent actually practicing the activity. The gym time would have been better spent doing standard strength endurance training (8-12 reps, 3-4 sets, etc, the ones everyone here knows), or having a break, instead it just built up a huge level of fatigue and probably left me skating close to RSI injuries.
TL;DR, what Cartlon said. Just with more words and painfully misplaced training.
07-28-15, 04:00 PM
#36
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The long answer is 368 pages
Periodization Training for Sports-3rd Edition: Tudor Bompa, Carlo Buzzichelli: 9781450469432: Amazon.com: Books
About Bompa:
Periodization Training for Sports-3rd Edition: Tudor Bompa, Carlo Buzzichelli: 9781450469432: Amazon.com: Books
About Bompa:
Actually, good tip (to get that book) if I want to know more. And, I do. So, thanks for that. Also, I have taken the advice from a several of you, and am presently going about engaging a "Cycle, sprint based strength / conditioning coach". Am a bit lucky on that front, as we have several rather good ones here in NZ. Am still interested in peoples experiences though too ..
07-28-15, 04:02 PM
#37
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Well, unfortunately back in my rowing days my gym trainer got me to do super high rep sets - I had a 6 week "gap" between blocks, and he programmed me 4 functional closely related movements - seated rows, leg extensions, ham curls and bench pulls. Was in the gym 4 times a week, one exercise each session, pulling about 35% of one rep max - and reps started in week one at 65, progressed about 20 reps each week or until failure. You want a soul crusing workout, try doing nearly 200 hammy curls.
The upshot? It was NTFU (next to f******* useless). The idea was endurance conditioning, but because rowing is a strength endurance sport the time would have been better spent actually practicing the activity. The gym time would have been better spent doing standard strength endurance training (8-12 reps, 3-4 sets, etc, the ones everyone here knows), or having a break, instead it just built up a huge level of fatigue and probably left me skating close to RSI injuries.
TL;DR, what Cartlon said. Just with more words and painfully misplaced training.
The upshot? It was NTFU (next to f******* useless). The idea was endurance conditioning, but because rowing is a strength endurance sport the time would have been better spent actually practicing the activity. The gym time would have been better spent doing standard strength endurance training (8-12 reps, 3-4 sets, etc, the ones everyone here knows), or having a break, instead it just built up a huge level of fatigue and probably left me skating close to RSI injuries.
TL;DR, what Cartlon said. Just with more words and painfully misplaced training.
07-29-15, 04:54 PM
#38
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I actually incorporate Power Single Leg Presses in my program. I find them to be very useful! They are functionally similar to Step Ups, but using a 45 degree leg press sled, you can add more than your body weight and have a more controlled movement.
Single Leg Press (for strength) and Single Power Leg Press (for power) are the basis of the program that I created for myself. I can't say that it's *better* than traditional squats and power cleans. But, I *can* say that it is not worse
I personally think it's better being that we use our legs independently of each other when we ride our bikes.
I did train knee lifts for strength using a hip flexor machine one season. I was maxing it out after about 2-3 weeks.
My goal was to have my hip flexors aid with turning over big gears during standing starts and getting the bike up to max speed. (like others above) I can't say that it made my cycling any better. I'd recommend such as a supplemental exercise. Basically: Train these muscles so that you don't pull one one day and be sidelined by a small muscle tear, but don't expect any notable performance gains.
As mentioned above as well, at high cadences, the real goal is to keep your back leg from being dead weight that works against the front leg.
Single Leg Press (for strength) and Single Power Leg Press (for power) are the basis of the program that I created for myself. I can't say that it's *better* than traditional squats and power cleans. But, I *can* say that it is not worse
I personally think it's better being that we use our legs independently of each other when we ride our bikes.
I did train knee lifts for strength using a hip flexor machine one season. I was maxing it out after about 2-3 weeks.
My goal was to have my hip flexors aid with turning over big gears during standing starts and getting the bike up to max speed. (like others above) I can't say that it made my cycling any better. I'd recommend such as a supplemental exercise. Basically: Train these muscles so that you don't pull one one day and be sidelined by a small muscle tear, but don't expect any notable performance gains.
As mentioned above as well, at high cadences, the real goal is to keep your back leg from being dead weight that works against the front leg.
Thanks for your reply Carleton. All good stuff. I am persuaded to get myself a track - cycle based "strength and conditioning coach",
Cant help wondering what Eddie Dawklns (New zealander), does on this subject. He just broke Chris Hoys flying 200 metre world record - using 56 x 12 gearing. Bet he pulls up and over with his Posterior chain / hip-flexors eh !!
07-29-15, 05:41 PM
#39
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Thanks for your reply Carleton. All good stuff. I am persuaded to get myself a track - cycle based "strength and conditioning coach",
Cant help wondering what Eddie Dawklns (New zealander), does on this subject. He just broke Chris Hoys flying 200 metre world record - using 56 x 12 gearing. Bet he pulls up and over with his Posterior chain / hip-flexors eh !!
Cant help wondering what Eddie Dawklns (New zealander), does on this subject. He just broke Chris Hoys flying 200 metre world record - using 56 x 12 gearing. Bet he pulls up and over with his Posterior chain / hip-flexors eh !!
Dawkins can ride a 9s flying 200M seated.
Seriously, it will not serve you to compare yourself or your program to that of the top athletes in the world.
Last edited by carleton; 07-29-15 at 05:52 PM.
07-29-15, 06:02 PM
#40
Senior Member
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1997818
Last edited by Dalai; 07-29-15 at 06:09 PM.
07-29-15, 10:37 PM
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ontario
Posts: 740
Bikes: T1, S2, P3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
There is a chart somewhere on here or a book I've read that shows a correlation because how close you are to your genetic potential, and the complexity of training. For example, beginners can do just about anything and get fitter/faster, where guys who are at 90% of their absolute human potential need to have a much more complicated program. In a nut shell, 10.0 riders are not training the way they did when they were 11.0 riders, for good reason.
If you think are are at the top end of that spectrum running then I would suggest getting a coach. Otherwise you will make things overly complicated, progress slower by focusing on the wrong things, and likely hurt yourself if you try to follow the training of the top guy in the world who is 30 years younger than you.
If you think are are at the top end of that spectrum running then I would suggest getting a coach. Otherwise you will make things overly complicated, progress slower by focusing on the wrong things, and likely hurt yourself if you try to follow the training of the top guy in the world who is 30 years younger than you.
07-29-15, 11:52 PM
#42
Senior Member
From my own experience, and observations of some really fast masters guys, I think you need to seriously consider what your focus will be. Your age group is still very competitive and I think you either need to focus on sprinting, or just be happy to be a fast all rounder. That would still allow you to be a fast sprinter, but when you come up against the pure sprint guys, you will likely be smoked, especially at the worlds. Basically the fast sprint guys only do sprinting. A long ride for them is a keirin, and a few of them don't even do those.
As for the other stuff to do with the specific exercises, I think it's far too early in your journey to worry about those. As eluded to above, the racers you see doing those exercises are doing them after many years of development in an effort to eek out hundredths of a second. Stick to the basics to build a good base from which you can tweak at a later point.
Finally on the topic of the pedalling and pulling up, there is definitely a benefit to incorporating your hip flexors and hamstrings into the movement. But the benefit to these that I can feel is in full gas standing starts, where you can definitely feel the added benefit of engaging these muscles. Once you're up and going after the first few pedal strokes, I don't think it helps all that much, but for those first few, definitely a benefit
As for the other stuff to do with the specific exercises, I think it's far too early in your journey to worry about those. As eluded to above, the racers you see doing those exercises are doing them after many years of development in an effort to eek out hundredths of a second. Stick to the basics to build a good base from which you can tweak at a later point.
Finally on the topic of the pedalling and pulling up, there is definitely a benefit to incorporating your hip flexors and hamstrings into the movement. But the benefit to these that I can feel is in full gas standing starts, where you can definitely feel the added benefit of engaging these muscles. Once you're up and going after the first few pedal strokes, I don't think it helps all that much, but for those first few, definitely a benefit
07-30-15, 01:24 AM
#43
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
There is a chart somewhere on here or a book I've read that shows a correlation because how close you are to your genetic potential, and the complexity of training. For example, beginners can do just about anything and get fitter/faster, where guys who are at 90% of their absolute human potential need to have a much more complicated program. In a nut shell, 10.0 riders are not training the way they did when they were 11.0 riders, for good reason.
If you think are are at the top end of that spectrum running then I would suggest getting a coach. Otherwise you will make things overly complicated, progress slower by focusing on the wrong things, and likely hurt yourself if you try to follow the training of the top guy in the world who is 30 years younger than you.
If you think are are at the top end of that spectrum running then I would suggest getting a coach. Otherwise you will make things overly complicated, progress slower by focusing on the wrong things, and likely hurt yourself if you try to follow the training of the top guy in the world who is 30 years younger than you.
So yes, take your points (and Carleton's along related lines). Thanks chaps. Really appreciate engaging with you chaps. DHRB
07-30-15, 01:27 AM
#44
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
From my own experience, and observations of some really fast masters guys, I think you need to seriously consider what your focus will be. Your age group is still very competitive and I think you either need to focus on sprinting, or just be happy to be a fast all rounder. That would still allow you to be a fast sprinter, but when you come up against the pure sprint guys, you will likely be smoked, especially at the worlds. Basically the fast sprint guys only do sprinting. A long ride for them is a keirin, and a few of them don't even do those.
As for the other stuff to do with the specific exercises, I think it's far too early in your journey to worry about those. As eluded to above, the racers you see doing those exercises are doing them after many years of development in an effort to eek out hundredths of a second. Stick to the basics to build a good base from which you can tweak at a later point.
Finally on the topic of the pedalling and pulling up, there is definitely a benefit to incorporating your hip flexors and hamstrings into the movement. But the benefit to these that I can feel is in full gas standing starts, where you can definitely feel the added benefit of engaging these muscles. Once you're up and going after the first few pedal strokes, I don't think it helps all that much, but for those first few, definitely a benefit
As for the other stuff to do with the specific exercises, I think it's far too early in your journey to worry about those. As eluded to above, the racers you see doing those exercises are doing them after many years of development in an effort to eek out hundredths of a second. Stick to the basics to build a good base from which you can tweak at a later point.
Finally on the topic of the pedalling and pulling up, there is definitely a benefit to incorporating your hip flexors and hamstrings into the movement. But the benefit to these that I can feel is in full gas standing starts, where you can definitely feel the added benefit of engaging these muscles. Once you're up and going after the first few pedal strokes, I don't think it helps all that much, but for those first few, definitely a benefit
07-30-15, 02:21 AM
#45
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Hey, man. The following isn't directed to you personally.
I've been on a handful of track racing forums and I've been on all kinds of forums for literally decades. There are a few basic archetypes of participants.
- The newbie asking newbie questions.
- The lurker who reads for info (soaks it up like a sponge)
- The lurker who knows but won't answer (usually pros or really accomplished people. If they do speak up, posts are far and few between).
- The know-it-all (who really does know.)
- The know-it-all (who really does not know, because most of his knowledge is from internet reading.)
- The old wise man (Yoda he speaks like.)
- The sh*t starter drama queen (who's really here just to pick fights or urge people to fight. Likes to watch.)
- The troll (doesn't contribute much at all. Or contributes the bare minimum to keep from being kicked. Most posts are just jokes and push the edge all the time. often derails threads).
- The annoyed jerk (the guy who gets mad because you asked a question that's been asked before)
- The peace-maker.
- The historian (knows random facts from way back when)
- The researcher (kinda like the know it all...but with proof)
- The guy who thinks that he's reinvented the wheel. ("Have you thought about this?...", "Why don't people do...?")
I've been several of those archetypes in the past in one form or another. We all have.
The guy who thinks he's reinvented the wheel is an interesting one (I've been this guy). This guy usually has an idea that he thinks no one has thought of (in the history of track cycling, mind you) and that his small idea might be revolutionary....if people just listened to him.
There are three issues that this guy usually misses:
1) His idea probably isn't new at all.
2) People really are listening to him.
3) He's not listening when people tell him that he's not right and that his time/energy/money would be better spent in a different direction in order to get better results.
I've been on a handful of track racing forums and I've been on all kinds of forums for literally decades. There are a few basic archetypes of participants.
- The newbie asking newbie questions.
- The lurker who reads for info (soaks it up like a sponge)
- The lurker who knows but won't answer (usually pros or really accomplished people. If they do speak up, posts are far and few between).
- The know-it-all (who really does know.)
- The know-it-all (who really does not know, because most of his knowledge is from internet reading.)
- The old wise man (Yoda he speaks like.)
- The sh*t starter drama queen (who's really here just to pick fights or urge people to fight. Likes to watch.)
- The troll (doesn't contribute much at all. Or contributes the bare minimum to keep from being kicked. Most posts are just jokes and push the edge all the time. often derails threads).
- The annoyed jerk (the guy who gets mad because you asked a question that's been asked before)
- The peace-maker.
- The historian (knows random facts from way back when)
- The researcher (kinda like the know it all...but with proof)
- The guy who thinks that he's reinvented the wheel. ("Have you thought about this?...", "Why don't people do...?")
I've been several of those archetypes in the past in one form or another. We all have.
The guy who thinks he's reinvented the wheel is an interesting one (I've been this guy). This guy usually has an idea that he thinks no one has thought of (in the history of track cycling, mind you) and that his small idea might be revolutionary....if people just listened to him.
There are three issues that this guy usually misses:
1) His idea probably isn't new at all.
2) People really are listening to him.
3) He's not listening when people tell him that he's not right and that his time/energy/money would be better spent in a different direction in order to get better results.
Last edited by carleton; 07-30-15 at 02:38 AM.
07-30-15, 06:36 AM
#47
Senior Member
Whoa. Dawkins is 27, pretty much a raging ball of fast twitch muscle, and has been riding the track in Invercargill since he was a nipper, and has had a lot of coaching and development since. He's been a full-time athlete since at least 2010.
There's a broad base of work you can do to get faster before worrying about the .01 percent stuff that national riders will be working on. You also won't have the time or resources, if you have family, work, or whatnot.
Is the coach Ferg? It's gotta be Ferg, doesn't it?
There's a broad base of work you can do to get faster before worrying about the .01 percent stuff that national riders will be working on. You also won't have the time or resources, if you have family, work, or whatnot.
Is the coach Ferg? It's gotta be Ferg, doesn't it?
07-30-15, 08:18 PM
#48
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
6 Posts
From a 50+ racer who has won at the national and state level, and coached another trackie to an age group WR, I'll comment less on specifics, and more on some generalities:
-A coach would be a great shortcut to get where you want to go provided:
-The coach understands and works with master's track racers
-For what you want to do you need to work on both aerobic and anaerobic systems. That means gym and road work. Probably 50/50.
-How you sequence the workouts is as important as the workouts themselves. Trashing yourself in the gym one day then trying to do 1-2min intervals the next ain't going to work.
-Yes on periodization. But you need to go 2 on and 1 rest week vs. the "standard" 3:1. I know of zero folks over 50 who don't break down on the latter.
-It's not about volume. Especially for track. Short and sharp.
-The answer to a poor performance is not always train harder
-You need to be scrupulous about recovery. Feeding, stretching, rolling are hugely neglected when most folks set up their "program". At the sub 40 y/o level you can get away with this to a degree. At 56...can't overstate the importance.
-Train to the race, and train on a fixed gear as much as possible.
-A coach would be a great shortcut to get where you want to go provided:
-The coach understands and works with master's track racers
-For what you want to do you need to work on both aerobic and anaerobic systems. That means gym and road work. Probably 50/50.
-How you sequence the workouts is as important as the workouts themselves. Trashing yourself in the gym one day then trying to do 1-2min intervals the next ain't going to work.
-Yes on periodization. But you need to go 2 on and 1 rest week vs. the "standard" 3:1. I know of zero folks over 50 who don't break down on the latter.
-It's not about volume. Especially for track. Short and sharp.
-The answer to a poor performance is not always train harder
-You need to be scrupulous about recovery. Feeding, stretching, rolling are hugely neglected when most folks set up their "program". At the sub 40 y/o level you can get away with this to a degree. At 56...can't overstate the importance.
-Train to the race, and train on a fixed gear as much as possible.
07-30-15, 10:16 PM
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ontario
Posts: 740
Bikes: T1, S2, P3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
07-31-15, 03:07 PM
#50
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Whoa. Dawkins is 27, pretty much a raging ball of fast twitch muscle, and has been riding the track in Invercargill since he was a nipper, and has had a lot of coaching and development since. He's been a full-time athlete since at least 2010.
There's a broad base of work you can do to get faster before worrying about the .01 percent stuff that national riders will be working on. You also won't have the time or resources, if you have family, work, or whatnot.
Is the coach Ferg? It's gotta be Ferg, doesn't it?
There's a broad base of work you can do to get faster before worrying about the .01 percent stuff that national riders will be working on. You also won't have the time or resources, if you have family, work, or whatnot.
Is the coach Ferg? It's gotta be Ferg, doesn't it?
Yes, it is coach Ferg. You are right. It is the "broad base" you mention that I am trying to understand. The "principles" if you will. See, I used to be a (junior) NZ powerlifter, and able to squat 2.8 x bodyweight for reps. After all this time, I am awed that my 56 year old body has once again gone past the "squat bodyweight for reps" milestone, and am on my way towards squatting 1.5 x bodyweight for reps. Humbling, but wonderful. But the real magic for me is a newfound passion for track racing - and being able to use weights, to develop power, to be able to go faster on the track. Needless to say, I am hooked - Oh, and totally love being able to communicate with you guys, as I seek to learn stuff. Howsat
Last edited by DHRB45; 07-31-15 at 06:33 PM. Reason: clarity