spudly

Hi all: I've been talking to the owner of this Benotto (link below) and am going to meet with him and check it out tomorrow morning. It's my size and I like the bike's looks even though there are no decals (the owner said the bike wasn't repainted, and the Ishiwata and "made in Mexico" decals remain). If the bike rides well I'm inclined to get it, but, research (including several threads on this forum) indicate that most the Mexican Benottos including this model are subject to frame failure at the BB/seat tube. I'm a lightweight and have many other bikes so it wouldn't get much use, and the seller doesn't think it has too many miles on it. Also, if the frame does fail, it's my understanding that it's not catastrophic (like a Viscount "death fork"). So would you buy it, and, if so, for how much? Thanks for any input.

https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/bik/6140721413.html

CliffordK

$250 is probably not outrageous for the price for the bike, and I'd anticipate it to sell between $200 and $250.

I personally wouldn't buy it for 2 reasons.

• I'm not seeing a lot of info on Ishiwata 079 chromoly, but since it doesn't list butting, I presume it is straight gauge.
• The Galli appears to be a low cost Campy clone. I do like my Campagnolo bits and pieces instead

philbob57

IIRC, Ishiwata 019 has essentially the same specs at Columbus SL and the light gauge Reynolds 531. Chrome moly with high tensile strength and .8/.5/.8 top and down tubes and .8/.5 seat tube. It makes good frames if the frame is designed and brazed competently.

CliffordK

I saw notes on Ishiwata 019, but the tubing decal on the bike doesn't seem to look the same, including no mention of butting, so I'm not convinced that is it. However, neither 7, nor 1 match other decals.


https://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/ish...%20opt%203.pdf

spudly

Good observation Clifford. I don't know much about Ishiwata tubing, just what I've been reading on Retrogrouch and elsewhere, but you're right, a quick search doesn't turn up any decals that match. Anyone know more about this?

T-Mar

Ishiwata's decals have changed over the years. When I first became familiar with them in the early 1970s the decals were totally different and did not mention butting. I have seen the Ishiwata decals in the exact style on the subject Benotto. If you suspect it is not OEM, then check the diameter of the post, which should be 27.2 - 27.4mm. That way, even if it's not 019, you know it's a good grade, lightweight tubeset. During the early 1980s, Benotto manufactured several models with Ishiwata 019. I've seen 850, 1000 & 1500 with this tubeset.

I wouldn't say that most Mexican Benotto suffer frame failure, though based on the anecdotes they would appear to have a higher than typical failure rate. The frame failure you describe is caused by overheating the tubes. This is common at the bottom bracket because of the four tubes and mass of the shell. Typically, the seat tube will fail first, as it it the central tube and generally receives the most heat. Seat tube failures are usually not catastrophic, with the symptom being a sudden swaying the saddle.

T-Mar

Here's an original Ishiwata 022 decal in the same style as on the Benotto.

zukahn1 

Also I'm not impressed by this lug work I have seen a lot of $100 Japanese hi-ten bikes from this era with nicer looking work.

Myself I would consider it as a rider nice beater for $200 but would go higher.

plonz 

Comments like these make me feel like I'm at a high-end wine tasting and I'm the only guy who can't pick out the pencil lead in the Cabernet.

What is it about this lug work that doesn't measure up? Yes they are plain and have no high-end characteristics like thinning but I don't see evidence of sloppy joins or brazing. What am I missing that I'd find on a low end high-steel bike?

zukahn1 

While they look solid no major issues they edges just seem fairly rough and the points look just a bit off like on this one for the bottom tube you would expect to see a nice curve or a strait line and not slightly wavey.

spudly

Thanks T-Mar. You're right, the seller said the seatpost diameter is 27.4 (he's using a 27.2 post with a shim). I was interested in the bike largely because I recently picked up a 1985 Team Fuji with "Fuji Quad-Butted Chrome Moly" main tubes, and it's light and rides surprisingly well. The Retrogrouch site stated that Fuji sometimes used Ishiwata tubing branded as its own, and I thought maybe the Benotto might ride similarly. The Team Fuji has a small diameter seatpost though.

wallythewhale

I own both a Benotto 3500 with SLX tubing and an '86 Team Fuji. I have to say, the Team Fuji rides A LOT better than the sought after SLX tubing. Of course, that could be due to the fact that the Benotto is a frankenbike with lower end parts whereas the Fuji comes with the original Suntour Sprint group. Just my .02

zukahn1 

That surprises me if everything is solid it should be worth the $250 even with its minor issues if it's a true 079x triple butted Ishi frameset. It is just I would expect better finish and components a bike of this level tubing wise.

T-Mar

The tubeset used on the 1985 Team Fuji is almost certainly Ishiwata EXO-M. While the centre sections are the same gauge as 019, it uses a heavier and double butt at one end (bottom bracket end) for more stiffness. Also, the seat tube has a top butt, unlike 019, which explains the smaller diameter post. It also has seat stays that are 33% thicker. This all adds up to to a 110g weight increase over 019.

Of course, it's impossible to predict the difference due to possible variations in geometry and components, but all things being equal the Benotto should be a bit lighter and have a slightly cushier ride, though at the expense of primarily bottom bracket stiffness. Which bicycle you prefer will have a lot to do with your riding style and personal preferences.

plonz 

Thank you for pointing it out with that picture. Now I can see what you're getting at.

spudly

Thanks T-Mar, great info as usual! The Team Fuji has Fuji "Valite" stays and fork. I'm not sure what Valite is, but I know they used it on their run-of-the-mill bikes, so the Team Fuji is likely even heavier. I'm going to keep my eye out for Fuji's top vintage bikes, the Pro and Opus (any others?).

spudly

I don't expect great lug work on a relatively inexpensive bike (the Team Fuji's are nothing to write home about and, as mentioned, I love the ride), as long as the bike is structurally sound. It's not clear however that these Benottos are sound.