350htrr

....But an e-bike .... An e-bike .... an e-bike ..... [/QUOTE]

I recommend including pedal-assist nomenclature each & every time one refers to 'e-bike' - IMHO it tends to reduce (but certainly not eliminate) the instinctive opposition to pure 'throttle-type' e-bikes


[/QUOTE]When I pull the trigger for an e-bike I won't worry what anyone else thinks or says. I'll still be pedaling and enjoying the great outdoors, that's all that matters.[/QUOTE]

+1 [/QUOTE]

and, 350 says... That is fantastic... BUT, wait a minute... There "are different types of pedal assists", & or pedallecs… There are crank pressure sensors, and there are crank rotation sensors... a TOTALLY different way of applying/measuring, said E-assistance to be applied... Sorry, but I have been riding a "true" E-Assist bike for the last 6 years or so and know the difference... and.. there IS a difference...

EDIT; There are/seems to be a LOT of people on here, that have never actually ridden an E-Bike Let alone owned one. With a lot of opinion's... OK, sometimes I might sound like I am talking with a 1/2 brick missing, OK maybe even a full brick missing from my load & I often think outside the box... But, at least I do have some real life experience with an E-Assist bike (6+ years, over a 11,000 Km or riding one, a pressure censored one in the axel), compared with almost 30,000KM of riding a "normal" bicycle... I think I do know a bit about the +'s and -'s of each... Even thou, it is still just my opinion that I am spouting, Just like everyone else on here...

Mobile 155

We may argue what is and what isn’t a cyclist but in reality there are reasons people are looking at E-bikes. Food for thought in the following.

https://trainright.com/ebikes-reason...lectric-bikes/

NVanHiker

Not in my future only because I ride solo and don't have to keep up with anyone. I'm 72, bypass surgery, mild COPD etc. etc. but I commute and tour. I occasionally ditch my ego and push the damn bike up a hill. I think the main reason I wouldn't go electric is that a huge part of the experience for me is the under-my-own-power aspect - to look at the map and say, "Cool! I made it from Vancouver to Seattle on two legs, Gatorade, and Power Bars! Now for a cheap motel and a hot bath"! I think when I can't bike anymore I'll switch to hiking full time.

350htrr

WOW, That article is... right on the money...

Mobile 155

It demonstrates about where I am at this point in life. The hills are getting longer. Century rides are fewer and flatter. I no longer rider with the club riders and I prefer my MTB for comfort and fixie for coffee shop rides.

The ride from the valley floor to the mountain cafe seems like too much work for the effort. I might still enjoy the ride up into the trees and the pie and coffee at the mile high cafe but not if it will take half the day to get there.

Today if I want to visit the mountain cafe or high mountain apple orchards I get in my car. A year ago I would have left early in the morning and pushed my little legs up the hill. Next year it will not even be a consideration unless just maybe I get an E-bike.

Artmo 

I haven’t yet converted a solo bike, but we have two etandems: one a Cytronex conversion and the other a Shimano STEPS Circe Helios. At combined ages of close to 159, these tandems have revolutionized our riding pleasure, especially when it comes to hills or battling a headwind. And yes, we still have to pedal!

tcs

Experienced ebikers:

On a pedelec with cadence sensing assist actuation, can you kick in the electric motor assist by turning the cranks backward?

Hmm. (googling, googling) The answer seems to be 'no', so the bike doesn't surge forward when the rider spins the cranks around backward to position them for starting out. Correct?

But the assist level is controlled by crank rpm? So if one is riding along and wants to go faster via more assist, they would shift to a lower gear to speed up crank rotation?

350htrr

As far as I know, all you needs do is rotate the crank, the RPM or the amount of pressure onto the pedals doesn't make any difference as to how much assist the motor puts out... The assist level depends on the level you pick, like level 1=25%, level 2= 50 %, level 3=75% and so on... You can pretend pedal or you can actually pedal normally...

For a pressure sensor, if level 1=25% and you put 1.0 Lbs of pressure onto the pedals you get 0.25Lbs added to your 1.0 Lbs, if you put 10.0 Lbs you get 2.5 Lbs added to your input to the pedal effort... On level 2 you would get 50%... and so on... RPM not changing anything. There is also NO OPTION of pretend pedaling...

linberl

After reading the discussion above about e-bikes and single speeds and effort, I feel compelled to include my experience. I have a Dahon Mu Uno single speed and a Bike Friday pakiT 8 speed. I now have a OneMotor electric bike conversion that can go from one bike to the other (in only 10 seconds). I've ridden both bikes with the motor now. On the single speed, I spin out at all but the lowest speeds on PAS. I previously rode my Mu Uno single speed everywhere, including pulling my trailer with groceries, but had to stand out of the saddle on inclines. The gearing is around 60 gear inches. I could push my speed without the motor up to around 15mph if I pushed a cadence of 90 rpm-ish. With the motor PAS set on the lowest of 9 levels, I can much more comfortably hit that same speed, with a cadence of around 78-80 rpm. So, yes, I am working a bit less hard with the motor to achieve the same speed. Now with the geared bike, I am able to increase my effort to gain speed because I don't spin out. I can reach speeds up to 20 mph at my fastest cadence pumping my highest gear. The bike actually will go 28mph with pedaling assist, but I simply won't go that fast, it's too fast for me, lol. I actually work harder on the pakiT with the motor than I do riding the same bike without the motor as I push a harder gear at higher cadence. Without the motor, I never ride in my highest gear, it's just too much mashing for me. Bottom line: the single speed is easier with the motor and less exercise (but better transportation) and the pakiT can be harder and better exercise with the motor. Depends on what I'm after on that ride.

trailangel

Some have crank sensor, wheel sensor, and torque sensor.

linberl

On my OneMotor system, pedaling backwards initiates regenerative braking, however, you can easily spin back to reset pedal position without activating anything. You can pause the PAS to ride without motor by one button touch on handlebar controller and turn back on the same way. To increase speed, either pedal faster (increase cadence, shift to higher gear) or "flick" the throttle joystick to increase PAS level. It all depends on how the system is designed and the software, I think.

momsonherbike

No. The dynamics of increasing speed on a geared bike, regardless of whether you have a motor to help or not, remain the same. You shift into the higher gears to accelerate speed, and downshift to climb hills.

My newest ebike is a manufactured one, not a conversion like my first. The motor is integrated by the manufacurer into the crank set and is programmed to engage when pressure to turn the pedals is consistent. It will ignore simple singular turns of the pedals as is often the case for hand moving a bike around, readjusting position on the bike, etc. The motor "waits" until a firm continuous (at least one revolution) turn of the crank is made before gently engaging. By the second to third pedal revolution the motor will release significant torque at a quick, graduated level to help move the rider along without being abrupt or disruptive. The torque is disengaged instantly if pedal pressure creases. When pressure is again applied, it again takes at least one full revolution of the pedals for the torque to reengage. The amount of power released to the torque is based upon my selection of assistance I chose via my bike's control panel.

The results are extremely smooth: subtle at the onset, powerful afterwards. The amount of torque released as the rider pedals forward is based on how consistently the rider applies pressure to their pedal stroke. I have discovered the bottom end torque starting out is the one felt the most (by me, at least). The feel of the torque is more subtle as speed increases. It doesn't seem to continuously "build" per say, but rather becomes an unnoticed background influence as you achieve the speed you want.

The torque flattens the hills, removes headwind, and helps start the bike easier and more smoothly than a non-assisted bike. Your gears will still help in climbing hills, but that's pretty much the only time you would need to downgear. If you want to go faster, then gear up. Your torque remains consistent in the aid the motor gives, it just becomes more efficient when your gearing is appropriate for what you want to achieve. I also have the option with my bike to choose no assistance at all. In that case, my ebike becomes just a quality aluminum bike and moving it along down the road is all on me and my efforts (and use of the gearing) alone.

I know this is far more information than you asked, but hopefully it will give you a better idea of how an electric bike motor is programmed to work in tandem with the human motor. Honestly, it is one thing to describe, it's another to actually feel underneath you how your bike "comes alive" to partner with your efforts, rather than being a passive thing that just doesn't care. If you've never tried a well designed, manufactured ebike, you really should. It might open your eyes and mind to a whole new cycling experience

elizilla 

I have MS. The ebike/etrike is the only reason I can ride at all. I now have five of them. And whaddya know, now that I can lend ebikes I have been persuading friends to ride out with me, people who have not been off the couch in years, and they're loving it. It's not just me that they are good for. I am feeling great about ebikes. And rather hostile towards the naysayers.

tcs

Okay. Your info contradicts what it says on the ebikeschool.com website.

"The most common type of pedal assist system comprises a ring of magnets mounted on the pedal crank and a sensor fixed to the bottom bracket. As the pedal crank turns, the sensor reads the rate of pedaling. The faster the pedal cadence, the faster the controller will make the motor to spin."

momsonherbike

That website was simply talking about how a pedal assist sensor will activate and what compels the controller to send signals to the motor. They misused the word "faster" in the second part of the last sentence, which causes confusion. The word "quicker" is more appropriate. Faster spinning of the pedals with force activates the motor more quickly than a slower spin. That's all. Once the motor is activated, it is up to the rider to determine how the power of the motor is to be utilized and optimized.

My comment is based on a real person (me) riding an actual ebike in a real live outdoor setting, employing the bike's shifters for the optimum obtainment of speed and the optimum way to climb hills. I have enough miles under my belt of riding my bike on all types of roads in different settings to stand by what I said.

And just to clarify the question "is assist level controlled by the crank rpms?" the simple answer is no. The assist level is controlled by the rider's selection of power level ranges available for their particular ebike. The majority of ebikes have finger activated controls on the handlebar that allow the rider to chose, at any time, the amount of power needed from the motor - anywhere from none to maximum. Usually about 4 or 5 assistance levels are offered: eco, eco +, normal, normal +, and sport. The spinning of the pedals simply tells the motor to turn itself on (unless the rider selected no assistance in which case the motor remains off). Assistance itself is activated based on the power level the rider has selected, and a motor that is on. Energy is added to each pedal stroke, but the energy doesn't increase or decrease irregardless of how fast you spin the pedals unless you select a different power level.

radroad

A bicycle is a form of assist: mechanical assist. Try this first experiment. Try running down a hill. Measure power output vs speed. Then, ride a regular bicycle down the same hill. Measure power output vs speed. Which do you think is faster? Duh.

Now, try a second experiment with a standard bike. Measure your watts vs speed while walking or running and then measure power output vs speed on a regular bicycle. You'll be much, much faster on a bicycle with the same power output.

It is extremely easy to achieve 12 mph on a bike shop bike on flat terrain. It is extremely difficult to sustain a speed of 12 mph on foot for any distance.

A regular bicycle is disturbingly efficient compared to walking or running. A regular bicycle is a form of assist. Therefore, using a regular bicycle is a form of "cheating" compared to walking or running.

radroad

BTW, none of the major, established bicycle manufacturers offer an e-bike model with throttle. If you don't pedal, you won't move.

Climb14er

Sorry to bust the marketing of E Bikes but at sixty six plus, riding for so many years and climbing the high peaks for almost fifty years, I'm not going to buy an E Bike! I've got motorcycles for 'that' feeling. My road bike plus my running shoes and hiking boots plus a spin class is all I need now and in the future. YMMV.

shelbyfv

Doesn't disturb me at all and I don't imagine I'm running while riding my bike.

radroad

...says the guy who's never ridden an electric bike and doesn't know what he's talking about.

big john

You forgot the third experiment, start climbing a brutally steep hill alongside a fit runner. The runner, who doesn't have the added burden of a bicycle, will go ahead.

Classtime 

You don't need to ride a motorized bike to know that it will require less effort to make it go.

350htrr

WOW, another outside of the box thinker...

radroad

...and notice he or she refuses to address the actual substance of the argument. Instead, he or she resorts to name calling and emotionalism. A tapout, pure and simple.

If he or she were really so gung-ho, why is a computer necessary? Or electricity? The internet is evil too! He or she should be using carrier pigeons or having a face to face talk. Or at least penning a letter. Then again, isn't paper evil as well? As is ink. Those are forms of technology.

And apparently, electricity is just fine for powering up the laptop or smartphone, and for powering up bicycle lights. Batteries are fine for the tv remote and for all of the other household appliances that he or she uses daily. Oh wait, flashlights are evil too! A candle and matches save the day! No commercial soap for washing dishes, either. He renders his own fat after slaughtering the pigs he's raised since he was an infant.

Yeah, electricity and batteries are handy dandy for anti e-bike rants but batteries suddenly become evil on a bicycle. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Classtime 

@radroad battery powered electric motor vehicles are not the problem. Electric motor vehicles on MUPs or in bike lanes are the problem. They are like skateboarding or cycling on a busy sidewalk.