globecanvas

Keep in mind the distinction between a rider who is a lap down on the field, and a field that has been lapped by the break. Everything you listed is OK for a rider in the field that has been lapped by the break -- you can help your teammate in the break through the field, assuming you are still in the field (you are not allowed to drop off the back of the field to help your teammate).

If I were a lap down on the field I would not do any of this stuff. In a "real" race I would not be surprised if it resulted in a DQ for the lapped rider and the rider being helped. I would also not be surprised if they let it go, but that's the way of judgements on rules. Either way I would expect an earful from anybody whose race was negatively affected.

There's a huge spectrum of gray-area stuff and everybody draws the line between OK and not OK in a different place.

There's a training race I do all the time where the As and Bs are on course at the same time, with the Bs starting ~15 seconds behind the As on a ~3.5 minute loop. The Bs finish 2 laps before the As and it's sometimes the case that the A field is lapping the Bs right at the end of their race. It's clearly cheating for an A racer to bridge up to the Bs and ride the back of their sprint finish, then go OTF for the last 2 laps. But it's a gray area for an A racer to attack then, keep well away from the B racers but sort of use them as a course feature/distraction to get away from the A pack. When another racer does that I think it's not so cool but I've also done it myself, so that's a good example of where my personal line is in the gray area spectrum.

In any race, training or otherwise, where I've had a mechanical or gotten caught behind a crash and lost the field, I've always just rolled off the course. I don't personally see any point in racing if you can't contest the finish in good faith. I can do laps by myself later.

Radish_legs

The point in continuing to race is for the experience of it.

globecanvas

Here's a funny thing .. at a recent training race I remember seeing a guy join us on the 2nd lap and wonder what was going on. I just now looked at Strava and here's how he titled his race. https://www.strava.com/activities/948284344

Radish_legs

sounds like he raced.

Harlan

He's on the Paceline Forum these days, not sure about here.

hack

A couple years back, I had a mechanical in a crit that the ref deemed not a free-lap worthy mechanical. So, I was down a lap. I asked if I could jump back in and his instructions were pretty clear "that's fine, just stay at the back and don't impact the outcome of the race". This was a minimal prize cat 3 race, so not a lot on the line. More recently, I got stuck behind a crash in a P12 race, tried to chase back on but failed. I pulled myself out. I could have done the whole pretend like I went down in the crash to get the free lap, but that's another gray area.


A lot of these things that you're bringing up have "it depends" types of responses and the answers will vary from person to person. The best approach is to race more and determine for yourself what you think is ok. What you think is harmless now may be something you would never consider doing 3 years from now. Race your training races, get feedback from the racers you're racing with, and have fun.

TheKillerPenguin

I don't see any gray area here. If you don't race the full race why would you think contesting the sprint is kosher? You're mining these training crits for upgrade points; how would you feel if a dude that didn't race the full race setup his teammate for a podium spot and you might have missed out on points because of it? How annoyed would you be if you were OTF and a dude that skipped a lap pulled you back for his teammate?

Hang in for the speed work sure, but I don't see how you can justify impacting the finish after missing the start and jumping in because training race, if you're also using points you get from these training races to upgrade.

globecanvas

Sort of dark grayish-black really.

Radish_legs

First off, I've not gotten any points from a B race for upgrade. Second, I don't care about being a Cat 3. I can do everything I want as a Cat 4. I can race against Cat 1/2 as a Cat 4 in my preferred race if I want. But also race 35+ 4/5 in a road race. I won't apply for an upgrade this year, probably even if I have enough points for a mandatory upgrade. From what I have seen the mandatory upgrade is not enforced. Plus all of you will surely agree that points from a weekday crit don't count anyway, so I'm perfectly justified in that.

Third, did I get any advantage in this race, the way it played out? No, I don't believe I did. Chasing for 1.5 laps burned some significant matches, esp. given that I had just finished the C race, and almost everyone else was fresh. Yes, I did have a recovery period as I waited to be lapped. But I venture to say I would have been less fatigued had I just been in the group. So no I don't think I had any advantage. I think a guy with a flat who is granted a free lap would have a MUCH greater advantage than I did. The guy with the flat didn't chase for 1.5 laps!

Yet everyone here believes it is perfectly fine to race if you miss a lap due to a mechanical. Or maybe even more than one lap.

hack

These are official USAC crits? If that's the case, then don't influence the outcome.


True ... amusing seeing some guys roll into the pit that pulled a sock down or smeared a bit of chain grease on their leg to sell it.

TheKillerPenguin

https://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bi...cal-crits.html

globecanvas

You are arguing that joining the race a lap late is not an advantage, and getting a free lap for a mechanical is an advantage. You are both wrong and missing the point. As Pauli said, you're not even wrong.

Wrong because believe me, dealing with a mechanical and jumping back in is in no way like taking a lap off for a breather.

Missing the point because the issue isn't what confers advantage. We're not saying it wasn't right for you to eat up some guys at the end of the race because you had an advantage over them. We're saying it's not good faith racing to muddle the finish of guys who are a lap up on you.

These are issues with lots of gray areas and there is a lot of experience here telling you what the right thing to do is, and you are arguing against it. What would you consider "winning" this argument?

Ygduf

@mattm yells at his lapped dudes if they don't work for him when he catches back on!

Radish_legs

Is it against the rules? No.

Is it against some unwritten code? Maybe.

If I'm still in the race, can I cover a gap that opens up if I'm a lap down? Can I let a gap open on purpose? Can I sit on the hoods and give more aero advantage of a teammate?

There's no answer to any of this stuff because it's all ridiculous.

The officials can pulled lapped riders. If they choose not to, the racer is free to race to maximize his position. That's the rules, right?

Perhaps some of you don't agree with the rules and ought to ask USAC to change the rules.

You guys are arguing that if you are a lap down, you should not influence the race at all. But that's not the rules for a crit. For one, I'm still racing against other lapped riders. Maybe that's "ridiculous", but it's still racing.

globecanvas

I have an idea. Next week, before the race, talk to the chief official and ask him if it's OK for you to contest the finish if you miss the start, as long as you are careful not to finish higher than 3rd.

Maybe he will say "I don't care, it's a training crit" in which case go for it, but that won't prevent the other racers from thinking you are a dick if you do it. That is really the pushback you are getting here. It's a dick move.

Maybe he will say "of course not", in which case you should definitely tell him that perhaps he doesn't agree with the rules and ought to ask USAC to change the rules.

Costco hot dogs

That's up to the local upgrade coordinator. I can absolutely assure you that your local upgrade coordinator is NOT combing the race registrations and tallying up upgrade points each week to determine which racers are sandbagging on the weekday training crit. The only times I've ever heard of racers being asked to upgrade due to breaking the mandatory upgrade points threshold is thanks to other racers notifying the upgrade coordinator. In other words, we "self police." Also note that there are two points thresholds: voluntary and mandatory.


You did get an advantage. You took a piss and missed the start, yet were allowed to rejoin the field. Because you're racing a training crit, the race officials interpret the rules in a way that promotes gaining experience. If you had missed the start of a 60+ racer field on a big purse weekend race, and spent 1.5 laps trying and failing to catch on, I can nearly assure you you'd have been pulled and handed a DNF.

Yep! I've even gotten a push out of the pits like I was in Lay Tewr Day Frants!!!


There's a big difference between getting a flat during a race, and missing the start whistle.

caloso

Emphasis added.

Radish_legs

So it would be more interesting for me to poll my fellow racers. Doing a little push at the end, wide open roads, plenty of room to sprint, finishing way back from the breakaway winners, was that a "dick move"?

I bet they don't care. And they would think it was weird I was polling them.

caloso

Dude. Stop. We are trying to help you here.

TheKillerPenguin

globecanvas

Really, ask the official. Maybe he doesn't care and you are all set and all of us internet bike racers are sanctimonious d-bags.

I think by far the most likely answer you'd get from the official would be "ehhh, it is a training crit, but you really shouldn't do that, it's not like we're going to DQ you, but it's not a great idea," etc.

I don't think polling your fellow racers is of much use. First, I doubt you would be presenting the issue in good faith. Second, with respect, your peers represent a lot less diversity of experience than you'll find here.

miyata man

Radish_legs, forgo your own self worth to consider others.

I will say this again as someone with a lot of experience and one race under his belt. You need to do other races. This is the equivalent of having asked to move up to the B team in Junior High. The still JH practice squad guys who don't actually play in A games will talk to you but that's about it. This hyper serious BS is cloying and self defeating. Berating the official is going to prove what we already suspect about you and your small viewpoint on the larger world. Chill the **** out.

aaronmcd

If you think it's weird to poll your fellow racers about this, what about polling a bunch of random people on a forum?

Anyway, the answer to the internet poll has been pretty much unanimous. Don't influence the race if you are off the back. A lap down on virtually everyone else is off the back. There's literally no reason to sprint at the end. You're 29th whether you sprint or not. Maybe 30th if some other guy was also lapped. That's not the race. As soon as you are a lap down you aren't even racing.

I'm surprised you were even allowed to start. If I missed my start I wouldn't even consider that I might be allowed to ride around a lap down. I might try chasing, but I'd probably just watch from the sidelines or go home.

You're gonna confuse radish legs!
Being lapped by the break and being lapped by the pack are completely different. Teammates in the pack are expected to help when the break laps the field. We just can't drop off the back to help the break catch up.

Radish_legs

I am the one who is chilled out. I just kept riding and didn't give it much thought.

You guys are the ones who are upset. And offended that I kept racing.

Don't mess up a sprint finish. The rest is gray.

miyata man

Thank you for explaining that.