njkayaker

This is fine but it's not an argument that "cue sheets are better".

Anyway, cue sheets are a poor way of "finding your way around". If you go off course with a cue sheet, your only "pure" option is to back track.

Part of this "tradition" is the challenge of using cue sheets (and being able to meet the challenge as people before you did).

Being "pretty sketchy" seem like a case where GPS would be much better than a cue sheet. I wonder if the people having "issues" with GPSs aren't looking at the map. I don't rely on the pop-up turn instructions.

You don't need turns arrows if you are using GPS. GPS users generally have lots of experience getting around without turn markings. Looking for turn-markings when using a GPS is more work. These markings also have the same problem as cue sheets if you get off course.

The turn-markings are more for people who don't have GPS or can't read a cue sheet (likely the case for many charity ride participants).

You should, of course, realize that this is exactly what the GPS would be doing for you.

I recommended doing this earlier. Even if one is using a GPS. It's so cheap and easy to do!

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Note that I don't care what people use. It's just some people keep promoting incorrect BS about using GPS.

downtube42

Potentially fatal, but not necessarily.

I found myself in Odessa, TX at 1am studying my cue sheet to see what went wrong, when 4 guys got out of a parked car and started walking my way. I sprinted away. Maybe they just wanted to as me the time of day.

Randonneuring has been mentioned, so I'll address that specific niches. RUSA has specific requirements for the RWGPS cue sheet for official routes; requirements that drive the route creator to add custom cues and remove extraneous cues. Even for people who don't use cue sheets on the bike, the kind of information requested can be useful to study beforehand. Keep in mind RUSA rides are long, meaning too many turns for most people to memorize. And people frequently ride RUSA rides outsize their region. Some form of navigational help is typically needed.

I started rando with paper cue sheets, riding in Ohio and Kentucky whereas I lived in Indiana. Missing a turn and riding extra distance was such a common occurrence the sport has a name for it: 'bonus miles'. Cue sheets had their issues. Night time navigation, rain, wind.

The initial GPS units had little or no turn-by-turn and no background map, so you were just keeping your dot on a line on a tiny screen. With those units, indeed you would often ride past a turn before realizing you were off course. Particularly easy in a town where you can't tell which road to turn on, or where there's a shallow Y and you can't tell which one is correct. Bonus miles were reduced, but missed turns still happened. Some units wouldn't beep when you're off route, so you might ride a while before looking at the screen and noticing a dot with no line.

As GPS units have gotten better, as turn by turn has improved, as phone battery life and RWPGS functions have improved, the likelihood of needing a backup paper cue sheet is greatly reduced.

Randonneuring, to the uninitiated, is about probabilities and mitigating those probabilities. On a 30 mile JRA ride, I might go with a CO2. On a 400k, I'm taking a CO2, a pump, a tube (or two), and patches. Maybe a tire. Likewise with navigation, stuff goes wrong and bailing out is highly undesirable and often difficult itself.

indyfabz

Reading cue sheets hasn’t killed me yet, including during my nearly 4 month tour, although I did get off course a total of 3 times.

Baggie keeps them dry. (Does one not have to keeps an electronic gizmo dry?) They don’t need charging either. And with no electrical components, there is less to go wrong.

Including legs between turns, doing some simple math and paying attention helps you not miss turns.

PeteHski

No you don’t need to keep your “electronic gizmo” dry!

RB1-luvr

D2R2 is a great ride.

I'm old enough to remember using maps and cue sheets for organized rides and touring.

I'm not good with techy stuff and I'm fortunate to be able to tag along with others who have Wahoos and Garmin computers. I'm dreading the day when/if I will have to be self-sufficient and learn to use one myself.

njkayaker

No one is really suggesting that using cue sheets will kill anybody. (The "fatal flaw" was referring to killing cue sheets, not the person using them.)

This doesn't always work that well.

(This pretty much indicates you have no idea about what these things are.)

The GPS devices used for cycling/outdoor use are designed to tolerate getting fairly wet. This has been the case "forever".

Sure but this isn't a problem to the degree you are suggesting. Nothing is perfect. You are also likely using a cycle computer for distances, which is an electrical device.

Charging is an extra complication (it's not really much a problem when it's dry). But people using them deal with it because the benefits outweigh it.

I was significantly faster on randonees using a GPS than cue sheets.

Reading cue sheets at night requires two "electric" devices (some sort of light and the cycle computer).

GPS units make it easier to anticipate turns and recover from missing turns as well as making the turns.

PeteHski

It’s a pretty shallow learning curve to load a GPS route on to a modern Garmin. Once you’ve done it a couple of times you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

njkayaker

I don't exactly agree with this. There are definitely people who are going to have issues using them. These people might need a bit more handholding. (This is partially based on being the "GPS guy" for a large and active bicycle club.)

I think the most common barrier for people is not realizing that they have to engage with (practice) using it.

Many people think it will "just work" by merely turning it on. When this doesn't work, they give up. Many people also rely too much on the turn pop-ups. It's more reliable to also keep an eye on the map because that provides pre- and post- confirmation of turns and that you are on the right track (I suspect many people don't do this.)

They are certainly things that take some "getting used to". My suggestion is to learn to use it when you don't need it.

I went to using a GPS after using cue sheets on long distance rides (which have all sorts of problems the "big fans of cue sheets" keep ignoring). I have a fair amount of experience using both. And even with all the "problems" with GPS, the GPS clearly won.

terrymorse 

The route loading process used to have a pretty high geekiness factor, but with the Ride With GPS widget installed on a Garmin, loading a route is so much easier than it used to be.

1. Open Ride With GPS app on your phone, "pin" the route you want to load.
2. Open Ride With GPS widget on Garmin, press Pinned Routes.
3. Select the route you want, press Download.

So easy.

njkayaker

I know people who have issues with this process.

(This also ignores the part of actually using the downloaded course.)

RB1-luvr

I did go thru GPS growing pains with a friend once. He was new to it and had the map for the gravel grinder we were going to do (Grindstone) in his Wahoo. He also mapped the ride from our campsite to the start of the event which was only 1.5 miles away and 50' of elevation. 8 miles and 1000' of climbing later, we arrived at the event. That was painful. When/if I get into GPS-ing I'd like to avoid that sort of catastrophe. The lesson learned was that the device is only as good as the idiot using it. He and I are both tech idiots. Luckily, the event coordinators set him straight and sorted out his device (and him) before we departed for the ride, or that would have been a really bad day.

indyfabz

How long does a full charge last? (Another honest question.) I have sometimes gone for long days without (practicable) access to power, and I like to save the external battery I carry for the phone.

unterhausen

I'm really happy with RWGPS and their IQ app. In 2019, in France, the organizers of PBP made a last-minute change to the route. Fortunately, someone I knew had redone the route, but I could have done it on my phone if I wanted. Pinned it on my account and used the IQ app to load it on my device. Tbh, their official cue sheet was pretty useless to me, the way their road system works is not what I'm used to and I couldn't understand their directions. But if I had been reliant on a cue sheet, not being able to print the changed cues would have been an issue. Of course, nobody really uses their gps on that ride either, they have arrows posted at every turn. And in 750 miles, there are a lot of turns. It's nice to have gps as a backup though.

njkayaker

Depends on the unit. The 1030+ should go 17+ hours. (Charging is an issue to consider.) One reason to use a GPS is because they tend to be much better with power than phones are.

Are you keeping the phone on all the time? If so, why? In many remote places, cell phones can consume more power trying to find a tower.

We are talking about things that have been around for 15+ years. So, no, you don't have a "pretty good idea of what they are".

It comes across as a snide "gotcha" thing. It presumed that they have a problem getting wet and one had to do something extra. It's an example of "begging the question".

No, it wasn't an honest question.

So, your "delivery" kind of sucked.

(You embedding comments inside my quote is pretty weird too.)

An honest question would have been more like "How well do they work in long periods of steady rain?"

njkayaker

This issue might have been more likely without a GPS. The route planners generally give you a good idea of the terrain and elevation.

downtube42

Cue sheets in baggies for sure. At night, wet hands inside wet gloves, wet baggie, rain falling from the sky, traffic, and it's time to switch cue sheets. It's a test of dexterity and one's sense of humor. Been there, done that.

GPS is waterproof. The hilarity of roadside soggy paper manipulation is lost, but not much else.

Arithmatic while sleep deprived is another loss. After many miles when my cyclocomputer was off by 1.42 miles due to reasons, adding 1.42 in my head to all cues, which eventually becomes 1.5, ug. I mean, obsessing over arithmetic is something to occupy the mind but I'd really just rather think about the shades of green vegetation or consider what snacks I'm going to buy in the next town. GPS tells me correct distance to next turn no matter what off route shenanigans I've been up to. Also tells me distance to finish, without arithmetic.

For a long time after gps, I'd print a cue sheet, baggie it up, and stow it just in case. These days, I download the route to my phone and stow that. Nav by phone is not my favorite, but doable. Airplane mode, power save on, gets it done.

I made a cue sheet for a ride last year, when I was on a business trip without any gear. Rented bike, paper sheet, 50 miles in Northern Ireland. It was okay, but next trip I'll take my GPS.

PeteHski

There are always people who will have issues with relatively simple consumer tech. This is stuff you can literally teach a 5 year old to use. The fact that a bunch of senior technophobes will struggle to find the on/off switch doesn’t make the actual process complicated.

njkayaker

GPS avoids the issue of needing to look for street signs, which might not have the right name, be in a standard location, be visible, or even even exist.

There is also a fair amount of variability in cue sheets themselves.

The GPS has an advantage of being one thing, the same thing, over and over again.

rsbob 

Every once in a while I will vary a route a bit through new areas. Since I have the routes memorized, I will jot down the variance on a 3X5 card the streets and R or L. I try to limit the new turns to about 10 so am not looking at the darn thing constantly. If I get lost, I use ‘the Google’ maps on my phone and all is good.

Steve B.

The Garmin 1040 goes 35 hrs. The solar version much longer. With external batteries, you could likely go a week of usage..

gif4445

I stayed the night at the Green Mountain motel in Jeffrey City in 2014 while on tour. Not the worst place I have ever stayed, but didn't make the top 10 either. Had supper and breakfast the next morning at the local restaurant. Some different characters in that town for sure. Years later, after studying up on the history, the wife and I drove around town during a trek to Glacier NP. Spooky and very interesting for sure. In 2019, while competing in the Trans Am Bike Race, I passed through town around midnight or so. Still seemed spooky.

gif4445

The extra info was very useful, especially when determining distance to services. For me, having that info intertwined within the route, made it even more useful. But that's just me. I'm sure open to new ideas and different methods. More so if it's from someone who has actually completed a race of this magnitude.

indyfabz

While I was at the bar, a staggering drunk came in, bought more beer to take out and got back in his truck. I was glad I had walked there from the motel.

When I was there, some of the old barracks-style housing units for the miners were still there, although fenced off. One was designated "Single Men." I had brought dinner supplies from Lander, so I went to the Lion's Club Park to cook. Three Dutch cyclists were camping there. Pretty serious mosquitoes. The portable toilet looked like it was 20 years old.

Back in Lander, where I took a rest day, I met a guy from MN at the town park campsite. He and his friend had been riding home. His friend crashed badly coming into DuBois after descending Togwotee and had been taken to the hospital in Lander. The guy was waiting for their wives to drive out from MN to pick them up. He had left his tent fly peeled back while he visited his friend in the hospital. The sprinklers had come on and flooded his tent and soaked everything inside. A couple of days later, while I was walking to lunch in Jeffrey City, a van with MN plates was heading east with two bikes on the roof, one of which was severely damaged. It was the guy I had met in Lander with his friend and their wives.

prj71

LOL!!!! Back away from your computer screen and every electronic device in your house.

Such nonsense.

prj71

The Garmin Edge computers will alert you to eat or drink at time or distance intervals that you specify.