euryris

Hi Bike Forums,

I've recently decided to take up more bike maintenance as part of some ahem... covid-19 related financial dips. As part of that maintenance I want to maintain my bottom bracket bearings myself. I've decided to buy a CeramicSpeed bottom bracket which replaces a BB by "C-BEAR" which had a hugely complicated anti-creak construction. Shameless honesty: I hope that somebody on the forums can provide me with answers such that I don't have to walk up and down my LBS (2 hour walk back 'n forth) and pay them big money whilst not improving my bike mechanic skills one bit.

Moving forward, I have had my LBS press the BB into my (Canyon Aeroad 2018) frame (Note: this has the PF41/BB86 BB standard). The Bottom Bracket has no (or vanishingly little) play in the BB cups of the frame. This should remove any doubt about a proper fit of the BB cups into the frame. The frame itself is some 10000 km's and less than a year old.

On the crankset side, I'm using SRAM GXP (RED 22) crankset, which I mount in the BB cups using copious amounts of grease (also using the CeramicSpeed grease here). This is to ensure a proper fit of the spindle in the cup, as well allowing me to remove the crankset. It should be noted at this point that removing my crankset is a downright heinous task compared to the body of video material available on the web. I typically struggle for some 5-20 minutes trying to get it out. Now, I tried mounting the crankset using any combination of the small (DS) black spacers (2.5 mm) or the (NDS) dust cover spacer (1 mm). Summarising all combinations that is 1 and 2 DS spacers but no NDS dust cover, 1 and 2 DS spacers and NDS dust cover. I've mounted these using the Park Tool TW-6.2 which has a rated operating torque of 10-60 Nm, up to about 50-51.5 Nm. My specific crankset has a recommended torque setting of up to 54 Nm and my torque wrench is accurate up to 4%. All things considered I am confident that I do not overtorque given these specs.

Anyhow, here comes the problem: no combination of the above leads to a crankset without play, and only the removal of the NDS dust cover ensures that the final configuration meets CeramicSpeed's constraint that "the crankset should be spinning freely". My question is what I can do at this point? To be clear: all spindles, threads and points of contacts have received amounts of grease that even the most ambitious mechanic would call excessive. Please let me know what I can do at this point, or whether I should call my experiment a decisive failure at this point.

Cheers,
~e

Elvo

Install the wavy washer on the non drive side

euryris

Hi Elvo,

Thanks for your message. I've now installed the wavy washer which reduces but does not eliminate the play. Do you reckon adding spacers on top of the wavy washer would help?

e

Elvo

Yes add spacers until the wavy washer is nearly flat

cxwrench

Hmmmm...how much did this bb cost and what are the watts per $ saved?

Yelbom15

Does this set up need a preload adjuster? I’ve installed a couple that needed them and then a couple that just needed the wavy washer and a couple spacers to do the trick.

jgwilliams

On a GXP crankset the wavy washer should go on the drive side. The non-drive side is supposed to be torqued up such that it is firmly clamped in place against the bearing. The shaft has a step in it that goes against one side of the bearing so it can't move further that way and then the crank arm gets squashed against it on the other side so that there's no way it can move in either direction. If you've got play there then something is wrong. The wavy washer then goes the other side with sufficient spacers to keep pressure on the bearing the other side so that the bearing cups shouldn't be able to work loose.

I think this is one job you really need a torque wrench for. Torque up the 8mm hex bolt to 48-54Nm, which is quite a lot. Note there's a bigger hex bolt but that isn't for tightening the crank.

Toespeas

dont let hambini find out about your dirty sins , but im confused you want to save mooney so you go out and by a race day BB and think it will last all season if you maintain it your self , how , by changing the grease after every splash of water because thats what you will be doing ,
ceramic BBs are for race day only , they are not even close to effective in training or weekly riding , they dont handle water damage well and the gxp standard puts extra friction on the drive side i think it was and causes tons of wear on the races ,
over sized pulleys might be a better drive train option for ceramic , but hey if you want to save money , start by buying the most expensive BB you can find ,

but what i have learned from guys like hambini is the bike industry sells you crap , and you need to measure your BB shell with the help of a professional to make sure its strait and round , and if its not you have to compensate some how , usually hambini just swears a lot and i loose track of what he actually does to make a bb shell true , but any way

i have never needed a wavy washer for GXP 24to22mm on my pressfit or threadfit , i have a bb90 press fit , i have a ninja token thread fit , and a gxp threaded , none of them have ever need any spacers for GXP , but they do NEED an adapter that goes inside of the bearing , to secure the end with the threads because its 22mm and not 24 mm , other than that i can tighten my crank up way past torq and it spins free as bird,

if your LBS installed the BB without the adapter you will have to pop out one bearing , these amateurs at my LBS did that , and i didn't know any better at the time , and they charged me for the fix , unbelievable right ?

on a final note i would highly recommend the token BB they are the easiest bb it just screws in a with a special tool and your done , if your frame can fit one i would get that , save the CS BB for race season if we ever get one again

jgwilliams

Absolutely correct. I was assuming in my post that you had bought the correct GXP 22/24mm BB. A GXP crank will never work without it. Some use a shim, as Toespeas said, to convert the 24mm bearing to 22mm. I've got a Wheels Manufacturing BB that actually has a 22mm bearing in the non-drive side. If you don't have that you may be able to extract the shim from your old BB, assuming that it came with one, and fit it into the new one, though I don't think it's something I would attempt myself.

euryris

Hi all,

Thanks for all your comments. Installing the wavy washer on the DS side of the crankarm resolved the issue with the play so thank you for this suggestion. The bearing is now side-loaded when I use the dust cap piece on the NDS, and thus not free spinning when not under load, which is in contrast with CeramicSpeed's suggestion in their video of mounting SRAM GXP cranks. Question remains whether I can actually ride without dust cap in the climate I live in, but -- to be sure -- I have contacted CeramicSpeed in regards to their claim that the crankset could be installed without the wavy washer. (...which conflicts with your suggestion, and also SRAM's crankset manual.) Still waiting for CeramicSpeed's reply to my message, which I will also post here.

In regards to the choice of BB, you are correct that I have something to explain. The reason I chose this BB is because I got quite a good deal on it, and because it is a design I can maintain myself. This saves me the trouble of having to take my bike in for servicing every time the BB needs to be regreased. Over the 3 years I had this bike I grew a bit weary of asking LBSs for maintenance, my frame's manufacturer, "Canyon", does offer maintenance jobs but at a huge (comparative) cost. A final consideration (to me) was that I like to build my bikes without compromise, and with eye for detail throughout (deep clean of the full drive train every 1200k, and of the chain specifically every 200k). This kind of mantra is hard to maintain when you need your LBS to do this for you, hence my phrasing. Hope it's more understandable this way.:-)

Cheers, e

jgwilliams

Glad you got it all sorted. I'd really encourage you to keep going with the home maintenance. Most stuff on bikes isn't difficult and, for the most part, the tools aren't that costly either. In fact you can do an awful lot with a set of hex wrenches. I'd really encourage you, though, to get a torque wrench as it's easy to over or under tighten stuff and both are undesirable. I think that apart from the hex wrenches the tools I've used the most over the years have been a chain-breaker and the cassette removing/tightening tool.

euryris

I have a carbon bike and all carbon components, so I bought a quality torque wrench on day one. For crankset/cassette stuff I now bought the big torque wrench as well and I must say the peace of mind is worth the cost for me, ten fold!

~e

euryris

Hi all,

As promised, here is my relay of CeramicSpeed's answer to the matter:

---

I completely understand what is happening on your system because I had the same on two of my bikes.



The dust covers are not creating any additional drag. The friction point starts when the wave washer is installed. The wave washer works as a spring to compensate all the empty space but if the empty space is not too much then the spring load will affect the spinning performance of the crankset by adding a lot of drag.



Solution (you already did the STEP 1 and I believe that the STEP 2 will help but please go thru the step 1 as well)

STEP 1

• Remove the crankset from the bike and all the spacers and washers;
• Install the crankset without the following spacer;
• Attached is a diagram with the sequence of the spacers needed;
• Install the crankset using the instructions above and torque as per the SRAM recommendations;
• The installation process will be completed only after checking for signs of side play movement (FIG.2)
• FIG.2

• If by following this steps the crankset doesn’t spin freely please follow the STEP 2.

STEP 2 (if the step 1 didn’t fixed the issue)

• Remove the crankset from the bike and all the spacers and washers;
• You need to remove some tension from the wave washer;
• How to do that? With a hammer please punch the higher points of the wave washer.
• Attached is a picture with 2 wave washers, the one on the left is showing less tension and the one on the right is a Standard one. As you can see there is a lot of difference between both units.
• Note – DO NOT hammer until is completely flat, as you can see in the attachment still a little of waves. Do it by steps, try to remove just a little amount of tension and then test on the bike. (find the sweet spot).

• After removing some tension of the wave washer please install the crankset and follow the torque setting as per the SRAM recommendations. You will notice that a lot of the friction is gone by just turning the crankset.
• The installation process will be completed only after checking for signs of side play movement (FIG.2)
• If you find side play movement please follow the STEP-3
• FIG.2

• STEP-3
• Please follow the instructions as per the FIG.1.2
• FIG.1.2

• By adding 1 or *2 (*if needed) 0.5mm shim into the axle, before the wave washer, will be possible to fix that +-1mm play. (always on the drive side).

The mechanic needs to be sensitive and take his time and “experience” to test 1 or 2 – 0.5mm shims - until the play is fixed and the crankset is spinning freely.

We supply all the extra shims needed together with the BB.



Please follow this instructions and let me know the outcome.

---

(Sadly the forum restrictions don't allow me to include the pictures, so you will have to do without.)

I have indeed done what was asked but I am noticing some clicking sound when the pedal gets a slight "bump" from say a hammer (mind you: VERY slight). There is no sideway play on the the DS, nor the NDS. Since only the washer was modified, I believe I am hearing a deformation of the flattened washer. Also this information has been forwarded to CS and I will again relay their response about whether I should still continue. Sit tight!

abou136

Check out wheels manufacturing step down adapters for GXP. I had to use them to get the spacing right on my Tarmac, if you are having play side to side

Toespeas

yeah i dont think you need a wavy washer , for press ins its just the internal adapter , post some pics so we can see, is there an adapter inside or NO?

jgwilliams

No, for GXP cranksets you do need the wavy washer. The GXP crankset is only fixed on the non-drive side. That means that if there is a gap on the other side (and there normally is) there is the potential for the press-in cups to work loose. The wavy washer should be providing just enough load to prevent this happening. Obviously not required for threaded cups.

On a side note, can someone tell me exactly what the advantage of press-in BBs are supposed to be. It seems to me that they are a major source of angst.

DaveSSS 

A wave washer only provides a small, but constant preload tension on the bearings. It has nothing to do with keeping press fit cups from loosening. Campy has been using a wave washer on their ultratorque cranks for many years. I've never had a problem with them and BB86 press fit cups. If the cups loosen, that another problem. Loctite retaining compound is often used to fix that.