Happy Feet

That's a good point. There are horse trails around Jasper AB that are terribly torn up by horses because they are very popular with trail riding tours.
I think, in general though, that the population pressure of horse users in wilderness areas is probably less than mtb users - mtb riding being more popular.

The Elk issue touches on wildlife interactions in general. There is a popular off road race in BC called the the BC Epic 1000. I am torn between wanting to do it and the fact that it violates one of the tenets of bear safety by traveling fast and silent through bear country, particularly grizzly habitat. I can't get over the fact that in any other circumstance I would never travel in that setting that way.

In Banff I have spooked a herd of Elk before when running at night (I was in my 20s and not so circumspect) because they could not tell what I was. I expect they have the same reaction from mtbs. I find horses to be unusually wary of bikes.

Those reactions are basic to all bikes though, manual or e-mtb, as they both travel in the same sort of way in either regard

Kapusta

On trails where motorized vehicles are not otherwise permitted, when eBikes are allowed there are usually restrictions based on (one or more)..
1- max power output
2- speed at which the motor stops assisting,
3- whether the motor can be activated with a hand throttle or if it is strickly pedal assist.

How is it enforced? Its not. It is unenforceable. A good friend of mine owned a small shop that specialized in ebikes. “Delimiting” them (disabling the programing that limits the max power and speed) was trivial for him. There is almost no way for most people to tell a 750w bike limited to 20mph from a delimited 1500w bike with no speed limiter. And if you want to add a throttle, it is just going to be one more lever in the bar among many others controls.

Cyclist0108

Counterpunch is not a mainstream liberal publication. It was founded by (the late) Alexander Cockburn (who also wrote for the Wall Street Journal), who was a genuine but uncompromising environmental-leftist. It is important to recognize that they publish extreme views by design. Please note that I am not commenting on the merit of these views one way or the other, but it is not a surprise that they oppose any sort of development.

kingston 

Then it won't be long before people start putting big motors in e-bikes.

Happy Feet

The unrestricted motor boogeyman, while apparently so easy to set up, hasn't shown up on the trail systems I frequent. Why? Mainly because e-mtb purchasers are usually older, less experienced riders who just want to do basic access climbs and green or blue downhills. Few of those e-mtb riders are adrenaline seeking speed demon double black diamond rule breakers.

Seeing as this is about access to wilderness areas why not look at how other restrictions are enforced.

For real life examples that I can point to, the West Coast Trail and Bowron Lakes Circuit come to mind. Both have user numbers restrictions. To access them you apply for a permit. How do they enforce that? They just do. In Moab they have restrictions on utv access in some areas. How do they enforce that? They just do. Enforcement, fines, confiscation and user group peer pressure.

Who are the largest block of e-mtb comsumers? Boomers.
Who are the most likely generation to be rule followers? Boomers.
Who are most likely to enforce peer pressure for following rules? Boomers.
Who has the most financial and political clout to advocate for change? Boomers.

We are talking about access issues for mtbs. E-mtbs are here, they are growing in numbers and are not going away. The mtb community can decide if they want to include that emerging and powerful lobby group under their collective umbrella or risk aggravating them by exclusion. If the mtb community really wants to influence e-mtb rider behavior, the greatest chance for that is by including them in the participation within organizations, associations and clubs. Under the umbrella, and invested in the activity, they will more likely work to create rules and regulations and infrastructure that works for everyone. Push them out of the umbrella into the rain and see what happens once they realize they have the power. Just ask who the industry is playing to right now in a big way.

Boomers, as well as having disposable income and ability to travel to wilderness areas, also are beginning to take a keener interest in the environment. Try to exclude them from that, or demonize them because they ride e-assist, and they might work just as hard against the current mtb community. Don't want to include them? Well maybe lets not include anybody then - after all, that would be best for the wilderness.

Take your pick which side of the fence you want that emerging and growing group to be on.

Kapusta

One has shown up in mine.

Last summer what was thought to be a dirtbike doing some minor damage turned out to be a guy running a high-powered throttle eBike. Turned out to be a guy I met earlier through my friend with the eBike shop. He was never caught in act or charged. Nearly impossible to do.

But usually, there would be no way to really know if damage is done by a suped up ebike or a motorcycle except maybe by degree. So the extent of this is likely to be somewhat unlnown.

Regarding enforcement...

How exactly would you propose enforcing this? How do you ID a delimited eBike in the field?

Or, perhaps more importantly to understand your viewpoint, do you think there SHOULD be limits on max power, top speed, or on throttles?

kingston 

I'm on the side of the fence where people ride motorcycles on motorcycle trails and mountain bikes on mountain bike trails. Since I ride a motorcycle, I leave it to others to decide how weak the motor has to be and still call it a mountain bike. I'm trying to decide whether it would annoy me more to have to pass someone riding a mountain bike on a motorcycle trail or get passed by a motorcycle on a mountain bike trail. That's a tough one. Fortunately people don't ride mountain bikes on motorcycle trails for some reason.

Cyclist0108

Slickrock, at Moab.

Happy Feet

Well, there's always someone doing something stupid somewhere. For a while a group of mtbrs started putting broken branches in the gaps of jumps like pungi sticks. Who could enforce that? Sometimes random individuals do stupid stuff.

In federal or provincial/state parks it would be rangers, wardens or operators. Just as they enforce other rules like permits, fires etc...

More importantly peer pressure from user groups is usually effective. As I stated above, the largest demographic is also the most likely to enforce/observe rules. E-mtb riders are probably the easiest group to control in that regard - if they are included at the table. There will be outliers, as there is with current illegal trail building and poor condition riding and cutting corners etc... that will always occur.

Of course I support motor limits. I even bet the industry would as well if it meant better acceptance for e-mtbs.

kingston 

There's always some exception. Many of the motorcycle trails I ride would be literally impossible on a mountain bike.

Cyclist0108

For me, that unfortunately was not an exception.

Kapusta

This seems to be acknowledging this is not a fictitious boogeyman, but something real that can be expected. And how surprising should this be? Surely the lure of a faster ebike is pretty self evident (unlike pungi sticks).

HOW?

It would NOT be like enforcing the other rules you cite. You can SEE if something is an ATV. You can SEE a fire. You can quickly check a permit.

How do tell if an eBike is within legal limits out in the field?

You can’t. Something are unenforceable. This is one of those things

[QUOTE=Happy Feet;21961690More importantly peer pressure from user groups is usually effective. As I stated above, the largest demographic is also the most likely to enforce/observe rules. E-mtb riders are probably the easiest group to control in that regard - if they are included at the table. There will be outliers, as there is with current illegal trail building and poor condition riding and cutting corners etc... that will always occur.[/QUOTE]

Well that is speculation and your opinion. You are certainly welcome to hold it. I’m less optimistic about that. A faster motor is a pretty darn alluring pull. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. Time will tell.

What would an example of generally acceptable limit?

Also, Do you think that eBikes should as a rule, be allowed access on All trails that mtbs are? Most? Some?

kingston 

I think one could credibly claim that 250w is an e-assist for people with low fitness to get up hills. More than that is just an underpowered motorcycle. The 750w you mentioned above is ridiculous. Most people can't make that much power for more than a few seconds.

prj71

What kind of interest? Trashing it?

https://www.citizen-times.com/story/...la/5458286002/

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/eagle...untry-rangers/

https://time.com/5869788/national-parks-covid-19/

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...insane-numbers

prj71

That's just it. Open the trails to the pedal assist mountain bikes then it won't long before e-bikes with a throttle, that don't require pedaling, will be on the trail. As soon as they get their foot in the door they'll push for more.

prj71

Probably a good idea for safety reasons.

kingston 

Pedal assist is just a poorly designed throttle to get around a regulatory requirement written by someone who obviously doesn't know anything about bikes or motorcycles.

prj71

Specialized Turbo Levo is 700w.

I've ridden one before on a demo day. Hills were effortless. No sucking any air at all when I got to the top of them.

If a person has low fitness...Only one way to get better fitness...As Niner says...Pedal Damn It!

prj71

Good point...the throttle has moved to the crank instead of the handlebar as we traditionally know it.

Happy Feet

Almost everything you post is so easy to counter. All those links you posted. Do you really think those were boomers? Hah!

Let them get their foot in the door they'll push for more? You mean, like the topic of this thread: mountain bikers wanting more access to wilderness? The answer to all mountain bike access then should be NO.
You can't even tell when your arguments can be turned against you but try to keep denying one segment access and they certainly will. Go ahead, shoot yourself in the foot, see how it feels.

Happy Feet

Sorry, you want me to do all the work of defining all the parameters to create a perfect world when you really aren't that interested in the answers if they run counter to your preconceptions. I'm not God, I don't have all the answers and I don't want to waste my time for people who aren't willing to consider the validity of what I write.
What I say is those terms, limits, regulations, rules, social norms, expectations... will have to be decided by someone and the best solution is to include the stakeholder/user groups involved under one collective umbrella so they can work together to find solutions. This bad mouthing and exclusion of the fast emerging and potentially large segment of those users isn't productive.

That stuff will be worked out by discussions by interested parties working together to find solutions, not one person on the internet.

As to where e-mtbs should be allowed or what that mixed use system would look like. I've already described it several times. Do some work on your own and stop expecting an assist

Kapusta

You have argued yourself into a corner. its not my job to figure your way out.

Happy Feet

Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

I just find it boring after a while to keep making the same points repeatedly. I have done so, thus far, not for you or prj71 whom I know won't change your minds but rather for the many members who silently read but do not comment. I add my take to the issue and leave it there for them to decide who is being reasoned and who is being reactive.

But, in fairness, lets flip this thing around. You keep talking about e-mtbs needing to justify their access to wilderness areas. How about you justify normal mtbs having access to wilderness areas.

The simple scenario is a new wilderness area that has little human interaction at present; some horse riders and some hikers. Minimal human pressure. I'm the land owner/manager. Explain to me why I should grant mtb access to that area considering there are real negative consequences and NO positive outcomes. I am considering increased human presence, disturbance to wildlife, illegal trail building and trail expansion into fragile areas, soil erosion, littering, noise and engine pollution at staging areas, liability issues, bylaw/rule enforcement, regulatory issues.

Explain why I should grant your group access but not another. What does your group add to a wilderness area that is beneficial for it and not just for you? What does the wilderness get out of it? And, why is your unnecessary recreational activity more important than the other user groups. How do you justify yours while downgrading theirs, because, from my perspective, everything you say about them also applies in some way to you.

Go.

Kapusta

Translation:
Yeah, I'm not falling for that one again.

Shimagnolo

I wouldn't be so sure;
Last year I was riding my motorcycle from Lyons to Estes Park.
Up ahead I noticed a herd of elk coming from the left toward the road.
I got on the brakes and stopped short of where I expected them to cross.
Simultaneously a car coming from the opposite direction did the same.
As the elk reached the road, they suddenly stopped at the ditch, and looked both ways!
I couldn't believe it.
Then they proceeded across the road as the car and myself waited.

I probably have this stored away on video.