maartendc

Hi all,

So I had some very nice White Industries H2 and H3 hubs. (97 g and 252 g respectively).
I wanted to change out my worn rims, selected and purchased some nice lightweight DT swiss RR440 rims (450 g each).
I had some very nice lightweight Sapim CX Ray spokes with aloy nipples that I wanted to reuse.

Brought the wheels into the bike shop to have them rebuilt. Couple days later, they inform me over the phone that my spokes are in too bad of a shape to be reused. They assure me they would use DT Swiss Double butted spokes at $1 each. Going with DT Swiss bladed spokes would be $2.5 each or something. I agree to go with the double butted spokes.

So now, $120 in labor and $52 in spokes later... I go and weigh my wheels, and they come in at a whopping 1655g, instead of the 1565 g I was expecting with double butted spokes, and instead of the 1490g they used to be with my Sapim CX-ray spokes.

I take a closer look, and realize they did not use double butted spokes at all, but 2mm straight gauge spokes, which are about 1g heavier each! They must have also used brass nipples instead of alloy nipples, to get to the 1655g weight.

So essentially, it cost me $172 to downgrade my wheels from decently lightweight to what is considered slightly heavy. I am so angry they said they would use double butted spokes, and used straight spokes instead. On top of that, they cheaped out on the brass nipples to add useless weight. Why on earth would they take expensive lightweight hub and rims and put the heaviest spokes and nipples they could find on them?

I am trying not to be obsessive about the weight of my bike, but paying money and ending up with a serious downgrade is just infuriating. On top of that, they straight up lied to me about what they were going to use and made $120 in labor for the privilege.

- Am I overreacting?
- Should I stop being a crybaby because 1655g is still OK weight for wheels?
- Should I buy some lightweight Sapim spokes to 'upgrade' my wheels back from 1655g to a respectable 1490g at about $75 and just eat the cost?
- Should I not worry about it and just ride?
- The old saying goes: If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself?
- Will Tom Boonen with his 5th Paris-Roubaix this Sunday?

himespau 

I'd go in and complain about the spokes not being what they'd told you they were going to use and see if a manager can make it right. Beyond that, I don't know. Maybe look into getting the ability to build for yourself in the future? But yeah, 90 grams is just a couple of ounces in your water bottle, so, if you have to, it sucks, but moving on won't ruin your ability to ride.

merlinextraligh

1) typically a bad idea to reuse spokes and aluminum nipples. Going to the cost of a rebuild, start with new spokes.

2) I would be po'd if they in fact used straight gauge spokes when they told you they were going to use double butted. I'd ask them to rebuild the wheel with the spokes specified. However, IIRC DT Swiss DB spokes taper, as opposed to having an obvious diameter change, so they may in fact be double butted

3) from your post, it doesn't sound like alloy or brass nipples were discussed, and I think most any wheelbuilder would default to brass.

4) you're better off with brass nipples IMHO. 1) Alloy nipples corrode and fail. This is particularly a concern if you live in a high humidity environment, near salt water, or use the bike on a trainer; 2) Alloy nipples tend to seize making truing difficult, 3) its easy to round off alloy nipples. IMHO, the marginal weight savings of alloy nipples is not worth it. , we're talking a weight delta of 16 grams for a 24 spoke wheel.

rpenmanparker 

I can't tell you how to fix this, but I can tell you what you did wrong. That may help in future.

#1 - Never have wheels built or rebuilt by an LBS unless they are known as professional wheel builders. Wheel building is a complicated skill, and most bike shop techs just don't have the training, interest, commitment, etc. to do it right. Either find a professional wheel builder or learn to do it yourself.

#2 - Never reuse spokes. First, what made you think the old spokes would fit? Second, spokes are the main breakage point for wheels. The degradation that has occurred in their strength over time can't be seen until the spoke fails. The cost of spokes is small compared to the aggravation of dealing with a broken one.

I said I couldn't tell you what to do to fix the problem, but I can't resist trying. IIWY, I would buy the correct sizes of CX-Ray spokes with alloy nipples on danscomp.com. That is the cheapest source, about $2.00 each for the spokes. I think they include the nipples. Then I would take the spokes and the wheels back to the LBS and ask for them to be rebuilt with the CX-Rays. No additional labor charge and a refund of the price of the wrong spokes. You may not get all you ask for, but that is the starting point. No anger, no aggression, just firm commitment to what you deserve.

JBerman

Did the person at the LBS you went to have a good rep as a wheel builder? I personally think there is a big difference between just having anyone at the LBS build wheels and choosing a professional/competent wheel builder.

rpenmanparker 

Where you are mistaken is that 90 g is just a couple of ounces in the water bottle (actually three) PLUS the water in the bottle. In other words it is over and above whatever else is on the bike...every time.

therhodeo

I would treat the spokes just like I treat a wrong order at a restaurant. Is eating what they brought me or riding 1600g wheels unacceptable? No but that's not what was ordered.

ReneV

Not acceptable by the LBS, if the rest of the situation is as clear-cut as you outline. No ifs or buts.

That said, a 90g difference suggests something other than spokes and nipples is going on. Did you weigh the rims first? Is the new weight with rim tape?

JBerman

I think the best thing to do when discussing with the LBS is to obviously portray your frustration with the situation, but remain calm and professional. They will be more apt to assist if you aren't super rude to them, etc. And don't be a pushover either, however.

merlinextraligh

Weight difference between DT straight gauge with brass nipple, and DT double butted with alloy nipple is 1.66 grams.

OP doesn't state a spoke count for the wheels. Assuming 24/24 that's an 80 gram difference. (86 gram with 24/28, 93 grams with 28/28)

So the spokes and nipples, with manufacturing tolerances would likely explain the difference.

rpenmanparker 

But he was figuring on XRays. That is worth more than that weight again.

ReneV

Let's see what the OP says ...

seypat

If you do decide to ride the set as is, could you post your experiences in the "does weight really matter" thread?

On a serious note, sounds kind of like a bait and switch if everything was as clear cut as you state.

TimothyH

Honest mistake or lying, what the LBS did isn't right. I've little patience for this stuff. If they lied then it is theft, plain and simple.

Either way, I'd take the day off from work and stand in the shop with the wheels until they make it right. I'd be polite but would leave them with little doubt that I"m pissed.


-Tim-

merlinextraligh

The 90 grams was the difference the OP was expecting from the DB spokes.

"I go and weigh my wheels, and they come in at a whopping 1655g, instead of the 1565 g I was expecting with double butted spokes, and instead of the 1490g they used to be with my Sapim CX-ray spokes."

JBerman

I'm a man of principle, but a day off to me is worth quite a bit. Time=Money.

maartendc

Thanks for the replies guys!

That's what I'm thinking exactly. Spoke count is 24 front, 28 rear.

Here's how the math works out:
- 97 g front hub 252g rear hub
- 450g x 2 for both rims
- 52 brass nipples x 1g
- 52 straight gauge spokes x 6.9 g

TOTAL: 1659g, which is almost exactly the 1657g I measured. Other than the spokes, I can't think of anything else that would explain the extra weight, save for the hubs weight being off by 25%+

The weight is with rim tape.

I weighed both rims when I got them, and they were both 450g each, spot on. I never weighed the hubs, but I don't think they'd be off by that much.

Yeah they started out as wheelbuilders actually, but no idea if they had one of their less experienced guys place the order or build them something.

That's a good point on the spokes, I will have to double check. At first glance they definitely look straight, but it might be a subtle difference. However, I can't think of anything else that would explain the weight difference, other than straight gauge spokes AND brass nipples. The math otherwise just doesn't add up.

Thats interesting about the brass nipples. That being said, given the choice I would have chosen aluminum anyway, going for the easy weight savings. You have to spend a lot more money saving similar weight off of a saddle or something.

ReneV

That doesn't compute.

merlinextraligh

well technically its 1659.8, so he should have rounded to 1660.

PepeM

Just go talk to them. They can solve your issue, we can't.

joejack951

A few things. Assuming the OP did his homework and either selected the same rim for the rebuild or a rim with the same or similar enough ERD, I see no reason why not to reuse a high quality spoke like a CX-Ray. It is one thing if the wheels were getting rebuilt because of a few spoke failures. But that is not the case here.

On the topic of aluminum nipples, the only time I've had an aluminum nipple fail is once on a cheap stock wheel at the hands of a hack in an LBS trying to true the wheel and once at my own hands when I was too inexperienced to know to lube spoke threads when building a wheel. My commuter wheels are built with aluminum nipples and they've withstood well over 20,000 miles without a nipple failure riding on some nasty roads in nasty weather. If you fear lightweight stuff and can't trust yourself to fully engage the spoke key or remember to lube the threads on your spokes before building, brass is probably the better choice. Otherwise, it is easy weight saved to go aluminum.

I'm not sure why the OP hasn't gone directly back to the LBS yet and simply had them fix their mistake. It's completely unacceptable, IMO, to ask for double butted spokes and get straight gauge. Even if they only charged you for straight gauge, it isn't what you asked for. If they charged you for double butted, it's even worse. Me, I'd demand my old CX-Rays back and go find someone else to rebuild my wheels like the originals.

zymphad

If I was to do custom wheels or repair, I would buy parts myself. I don't trust any LBS to sell me anything at a good price or to be able to get the parts in reasonable amount of time. And just pay for the labor.

rpenmanparker 

Many (most?) reputable builders will not reuse spokes.

ReneV

Yes, that's the combined weight of the listed metal parts. The issue is the rim tape, which is supposed to be included in the total: 10g per for Stan's Yellow (2 layers) or ~20g per for most bands.

roadwarrior

One question...when a shop does work they have a "work order". That's what ties to the itemized bill that tells you what was done, with what parts, and how much stuff costs. They hand you that and then you pay.

What does the work order list?

If they had to change parts for whatever reason, we would put a comment in with the work order that the customer was contacted and OK'd the change. And when the call was made and by whom. So there are no screw ups.

Did any of that happen?

Oh...and never never ever reuse spokes.