They're not even trying to pretend anymore ...
08-14-23, 04:51 PM
#126
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Reminds me of when I bought a new car, a Toyota Scion. All of the marketing materials were geared towards young people, including a CD with videos, hip hop music, accessories such as a supercharger and decorative gear shift knob. After the sale was concluded, I asked the salesman: "So, all of your marketing is targeting 20-somethings. Who is actually buying these things?"
The salesman replied: "Old tightwads like you."
My only remaining question is how this is better than a gas scooter for under 1000 bucks:
https://www.amazon.com/DEALSNOW-Auto...V58/ref=sr_1_6
08-14-23, 05:01 PM
#127
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The ebikes that are the subject of this thread don't need any of those things.
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08-14-23, 05:04 PM
#128
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The proliferation of e-bikes (legal or illegal) under reckless teens in my local area apparently reflects a decision by many parents to give their teenage children e-bikes rather than to drive them to and from school and after-school activities. (Please note that "reckless" neither denotes nor connotes a homicidal tendency; I use this adjective to merely describe their lack of situational awareness and/or a disregard for their surroundings.)
Last edited by SoSmellyAir; 08-14-23 at 05:14 PM.
08-14-23, 07:01 PM
#129
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For me my local easy single track though the piny woods has been destroyed by high power e-bikes. Yep... Looks like its been used by motocross competitors. And it did not take long. In just a few days some young-uns tearing through made it that only a true dirt bike could make the trail. On the other hand, man, they had fun doing it!
This may push the hiking community to try to ban all wheeled vehicles, electric or not, on trails. They won't make the distinction that we are making here, and there's little chance that the human-powered mountain biking community can form an alliance with the hiking community to ban ebikes because the relationship has been so antagonistic for so long.
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08-14-23, 07:12 PM
#131
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Slow down, give each other space. You're not riding a time trial. That's why I love, and have been practicing my track stands....
OH...and if it's illegal for you to be on the trail, go ride on the streets. For electric powered gizmos in my area with a max speed of 20mph or more, you can't be on the trail. Doesn't matter how fast or slow you're going.
Last edited by bikelif3; 08-14-23 at 07:35 PM.
08-14-23, 08:17 PM
#132
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As a hiker and trail runner, any trail being used by mountain bikes (even before ebikes) is more damaged than a pure hiking trail. Every hiker has a story about getting spooked by a mountain biker; seems like you don't need a motor to be an inconsiderate *******.
This may push the hiking community to try to ban all wheeled vehicles, electric or not, on trails. They won't make the distinction that we are making here, and there's little chance that the human-powered mountain biking community can form an alliance with the hiking community to ban ebikes because the relationship has been so antagonistic for so long.
This may push the hiking community to try to ban all wheeled vehicles, electric or not, on trails. They won't make the distinction that we are making here, and there's little chance that the human-powered mountain biking community can form an alliance with the hiking community to ban ebikes because the relationship has been so antagonistic for so long.
That said, I'm familiar with some trails that were developed - all the hard work done - by a local mtb club and originally intended for MTB use. Public/municipal land was the problem. The decision makers were swayed by the walking community to make them multi use trails, which seriously degraded the MTB use. The point being, I don't think MTBers are any happier with multi use trails than the walkers. But with limited resources for trail development, it needs to work out as best it can.
As another point, I still don't understand why electric motors of any sort are OK on non-motorized trails. Non motorized is non motorized, period.
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08-14-23, 09:30 PM
#133
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In my locale, the university decided that scooters should be parked in designated areas, and pay for parking permits. The scooters ceased to be convenient, and vanished. Most of the students went back to conventional bikes.
08-15-23, 06:25 AM
#134
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I think it depends on the power and speed. There is no noise or pollution to consider with a small electric motor. I don’t see any problem with a 250W speed limited pedal assist e-bike. On my local MTB trails I now see quite a few e-MTBs and they don’t cause any more or less issues than normal MTBs. They are not even faster unless climbing. Same goes for e-road bikes. But here in the UK, e-bikes are quite strictly regulated on power and speed. I’ve yet to see anything dangerous on road or trail.
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08-15-23, 07:18 AM
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I am neither a hiker or mountain biker. My sister and brother are both hikers and have done “treks” across many trails including the JMT . My sister and her husband had many uncomfortable encounters with mountain bikes around the San Luis Obispo area while they were hiking. Most of the time the younger college aged folks were apologetic and friendly after knocking them off the narrow trail on a blind corner . Depending on the trail , I think it COULD work but most hiking trails are not set up for multi-use. As far as electric assist , I think the same applies. I ride road bikes and stay away from MUP’s for the same reason , the interaction between walkers with strollers waking 3 abreast do not mix well with cyclists , whether ebike or not.
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08-15-23, 07:49 AM
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I think it depends on the power and speed. There is no noise or pollution to consider with a small electric motor. I don’t see any problem with a 250W speed limited pedal assist e-bike. On my local MTB trails I now see quite a few e-MTBs and they don’t cause any more or less issues than normal MTBs. They are not even faster unless climbing. Same goes for e-road bikes. But here in the UK, e-bikes are quite strictly regulated on power and speed. I’ve yet to see anything dangerous on road or trail.
I know, guys on human powered bikes cause problems, too but this is just amplified.
08-15-23, 08:06 AM
#137
Sr Member on Sr bikes
What are the laws in your state with regard to helmets on eBikes? Here in Rhode Island motorcycle riders aren’t required to wear a helmet (passengers are). So I would assume that eBike riders aren’t required to wear one either. I haven’t looked it up, and don’t know if eBikes are even addressed in the traffic laws. But if the state requires helmets for motorcycles, I’d think that an eBike in the same lane of traffic would be to wear helmets.
Dan
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08-15-23, 08:12 AM
#138
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It used to be that mopeds were like mini motorcycles, they had a 49cc engine and pedals. I've been gone from the UK for a long time so I don't know if such things still exist. Here in the USA, scooters (having no pedals) are called mopeds. Americans don't seem to understand that scooters aren't mopeds.
08-15-23, 08:15 AM
#139
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In one hilly area near here there are groups of young men on long travel, high power electric mountain bikes. They wear full face helmets and body armor and I have been warned to stay off the trails they descend on. I've chatted with a couple of them and they were friendly but stay out of their way. This is what concerns mountain bikers, that these guys are going to cost us hard earned trail access.
I know, guys on human powered bikes cause problems, too but this is just amplified.
I know, guys on human powered bikes cause problems, too but this is just amplified.
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08-15-23, 08:15 AM
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In one hilly area near here there are groups of young men on long travel, high power electric mountain bikes. They wear full face helmets and body armor and I have been warned to stay off the trails they descend on. I've chatted with a couple of them and they were friendly but stay out of their way. This is what concerns mountain bikers, that these guys are going to cost us hard earned trail access.
I know, guys on human powered bikes cause problems, too but this is just amplified.
I know, guys on human powered bikes cause problems, too but this is just amplified.
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08-15-23, 08:38 AM
#141
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I presume these are hilly areas with no uplift system for regular DH MTBs? I doubt they will be using motor power on the descents (presuming they are suitably steep for DH riding). The motor on this type of DH MTB is to ride the bike back up to the top of the hill. But I could see how that could create a dangerous situation for other trail users if there were previously no DH bikes, simply because of the lack of an uplift facility ie a chairlift. Motorised DH MTBs effectively turn any steep hill into an instant “bike park”. I can see how that could cause potential problems. Regular unpowered DH riding is effectively limited to areas where you can shuttle your bike back to the top of the descent ie purpose designed courses.
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08-15-23, 09:01 AM
#142
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In one hilly area near here there are groups of young men on long travel, high power electric mountain bikes. They wear full face helmets and body armor and I have been warned to stay off the trails they descend on. I've chatted with a couple of them and they were friendly but stay out of their way. This is what concerns mountain bikers, that these guys are going to cost us hard earned trail access.
I know, guys on human powered bikes cause problems, too but this is just amplified.
I know, guys on human powered bikes cause problems, too but this is just amplified.
In the Venn diagram of mobility, there is a large overlap between the needs of bicyclists and e-bicyclists, and both in opposition to the needs of cars
Infighting does not help our collective cause.
Please, no.
08-15-23, 09:39 AM
#143
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In the Tahoe Basin, where these took off early:
...From 2021:
...Current status in 2023:
E-bikes are surging in popularity. What does that mean for Tahoe mountain biking trails?
The U.S. Forest Service’s Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit allows certain classes of e-bikes on 25 of its 385 miles of trails. Under the management unit’s proposed plan, an additional 120 miles of new and existing trails would open to e-bikes, bringing the total number of e-bike accessible miles to 145, not counting dirt roads.
...
But Collins said the forest service is a little behind the ball and keeping e-bikes off non-designated trails will be a challenge.
“The train left the station a couple years ago. You have to get ahead of this,” he said. “They are making moves to accommodate e-bikes, but they are on trails everywhere right now. They don’t have a way to enforce it.
“I don’t think it will make much difference because people are using them now. But from a legal standpoint, it’s a great move forward.”
...
But Collins said the forest service is a little behind the ball and keeping e-bikes off non-designated trails will be a challenge.
“The train left the station a couple years ago. You have to get ahead of this,” he said. “They are making moves to accommodate e-bikes, but they are on trails everywhere right now. They don’t have a way to enforce it.
“I don’t think it will make much difference because people are using them now. But from a legal standpoint, it’s a great move forward.”
eBikes in the Lake Tahoe Basin
Motor Assisted Bicycles/eBikes: The Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit (LTBMU) has determined that motor assisted bicycles (electric, gas or diesel) are motorized vehicles. Use of motor assisted bicycles is only allowed on motorized trails. Please take a look at the LTBMU Motor Vehicle Use Maps for information on where motorized vehicles are allowed.
Electric bikes or ebikes are evolving with more power, less weight and in more configurations each year. New ebikes are closing the gap between electric bicycle and electric motorcycle. Current regulations restrict ebikes to the motorized trails shown on the Motor Vehicle Use Map above.
...
Regulations regarding consumer safety do not classify ebikes as motor vehicles. However Title 36 Part 212 Subpart A, defines a motor vehicle as such:
Motor Vehicle - Any vehicle which is self-propelled, other than:
(1) A vehicle operated on rails; and
(2) Any wheelchair or mobility device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area
Subpart B of this rule requires designation of motorized trails, those trails are shown on the Motor Vehicle Use Map (link above).
Electric bikes or ebikes are evolving with more power, less weight and in more configurations each year. New ebikes are closing the gap between electric bicycle and electric motorcycle. Current regulations restrict ebikes to the motorized trails shown on the Motor Vehicle Use Map above.
...
Regulations regarding consumer safety do not classify ebikes as motor vehicles. However Title 36 Part 212 Subpart A, defines a motor vehicle as such:
Motor Vehicle - Any vehicle which is self-propelled, other than:
(1) A vehicle operated on rails; and
(2) Any wheelchair or mobility device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area
Subpart B of this rule requires designation of motorized trails, those trails are shown on the Motor Vehicle Use Map (link above).
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08-15-23, 11:21 AM
#144
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In other words the problem has been solved.
Dang, I was eager for the End of the World.
Dang, I was eager for the End of the World.
08-15-23, 12:02 PM
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My big question was that most of our MUP trails say no motors of any kind . Caught up with a park ranger in a local park and ask . He said in this county only type 1 e-bikes are allowed , if it has a throttle so it can move without peddling it's not allowed on the trails.
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08-15-23, 12:08 PM
#146
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This is another reason why bicyclists and e-bicyclists need to band together instead of bickering. If we don't collectively fight to retain trail access, we'll collectively lose it. Same with MUPs and bike infrastructure.
In the Venn diagram of mobility, there is a large overlap between the needs of bicyclists and e-bicyclists, and both in opposition to the needs of cars
Infighting does not help our collective cause.
In the Venn diagram of mobility, there is a large overlap between the needs of bicyclists and e-bicyclists, and both in opposition to the needs of cars
Infighting does not help our collective cause.
It seems to me like those who respond negatively to e-bikes don't think about people who use e-bikes for transport and utility. Or people who otherwise wouldn't be able or willing to cycle for various reasons - medical, mental, whatever.
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08-15-23, 01:35 PM
#147
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It used to be that mopeds were like mini motorcycles, they had a 49cc engine and pedals. I've been gone from the UK for a long time so I don't know if such things still exist. Here in the USA, scooters (having no pedals) are called mopeds. Americans don't seem to understand that scooters aren't mopeds.
08-15-23, 02:01 PM
#148
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Actually, in my experience, mopeds are often called just that. I never heard scooters called mopeds until I heard that expression in Wisconsin. Elsewhere, mopeds are called mopeds and scooters are called scooters. But, my sample size is very small and very old. I could be way off base, and I'm sure there's many places that call scooters mopeds.
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08-15-23, 02:13 PM
#149
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I think it's safe to call anything with a motor a motorbike. Add the less important distinctions as desired. Electric/petrol, pedals/no pedals, floor/no floor, class this that or the other....
08-15-23, 02:41 PM
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I feel like I don't understand what you're trying to say. It's far more likely that e-mtb riders are going to get all bicycles banned from trails. I don't know how we are going to band together with people who tell others to stay out of the way on trails. The only good news is that a lot of off-road only ebikes are made to look more like motorcycles, and people will be able to differentiate.