cuyd

I got a singlespeed bike made out of old road frame with vertical dropouts, something like this:




I am looking for a chain tensioner(tugnut) for such frame, mainly to align rear wheel in frame properly. I don't want ones with pulley wheels(sprung), as I don't have any good experience with them.

I was wondering are there any tensioners of this kind(track frame) but for the frame I own:



I can say that I've tried using these track tensioners on my road frame and even when they didn't work properly, they helped with wheel alignment - ie. I've set wheel in position, tensioned chain with them, then tightened QR skewer and finally loosened tensioners so the chain was tensioned by the wheel held by skewer and not by tensioners themselves.

I've used two for both sides, but I've heard that using one is enough, is that true?


edit: For some reason I can't see my image attachments so I am also posting some random links:
Dropouts: https://surlybikes.com/uploads/blog/FFHwD.jpg
Tensioner: https://saltbmx.com/products-2/chain-tensioner/

rosefarts

Check your particular bike. All of my horizontal drop old road bikes have a little steel screw built into the dropouts. Super easy to replace if they're missing, check your frame. Not a tensioner but it will allow you adjust how deep or shallow you place the wheel in the frame. Probably enough to make up for the slack in running a single speed without a tensioner.

If you want your chain tighter, grab something soft like a tennis ball and cram it between the frame and seat-tube, then tighten your axle nuts/quick release. It's imprecise but mostly works ok.

FBinNY 

You don't need anything, since you have classic horizontal dropouts.

Simply pull the wheel back, center and tighten, the same way as you would with IGH hubs and coaster brakes.

BTW - your problem may be that you don't understand chain "tension". I put it in quotes because the correct tension is ZERO TENSION. You want to pull up almost all the slack, leaving the slightest bit possible. Slack in the chain is critical because sprockets aren't perfectly round. Also tension increases wear. Obviously there'll be load on the upper chord, why double wear by also having thensin in the lower.

tFUnK

The issue with this is if a QR skewer is used instead of a threaded axle, it can be susceptible to being pulled out of alignment. Having a tensioner holding the axle in place can mitigate this.

FBinNY 

QRs have been reliably holding wheels on for almost 80 years. That's true even for super strong riders climbing steep alpine grades. Don't be offended, but I strongly doubt that you can produce forces exceeding that range.

HOWEVER not all QRs are created equal, and many key design elements have gone the way of Damascus Steel.

First, the QR does not keep the wheel in place, the axle (locknut) face does that by way of a biting surface. What the QR does is squeeze the dropout against the axle so the necessary bite happens.

So, rather than look for a tensioner, look for hubs with proper hardened, dentated faces. If you can't find a proper hub you can create the needed bite with traction paint, or coarse corundum or sand and nail polish.

tFUnK

What you say is true FBinNY but I'm not sure if you missed the OP stating this was for a SS application. I'm more sprinter than climber but certainly not a super cyclist; I have pulled QR SS rear wheels out of alignment even with closed cam QRs and serrated washers to help with the bite. I contemplated tensioners like the OP but ended up just swapping the axle to a threaded nut axle (no issues since).

FBinNY 

I've been riding track bikes on roads since 1967. Even using a smallish chainring I've NEVER experienced wheel slippage. The various wheels used include; classic bolt on track hub, SA 2 speed fixed gear hub, and a track hub converted to QR so I wouldn't need a wrench on longer rides.

Thr key is to use hubs and QRs that have the proven design specs that were universal before folks forgot them.

In the event the OP wants belt and suspenders confidence he can use a cap screw and nut in the slot forward of the wheel. Otherwise he might use a device like the one pictured, with a DIY stop riding the back of the dropout side saddle.

maddog34

I JUST slipped a QR in a horizontal dropout this morning.. the bike has Aluminum QRs and they had to be EXTRA tight to complete the ride... i swapped in a Steel, Internal cam style, QR, and no more slipping QR problem.

the One that slipped was a Shimano XT QR (silver painted head, Black lever).. they tighten at first, then, once they cam over and completely close, become looser.

well biked

My concern is that the OP shows an old school frame with obvious horizontal (semi-horizontal, to be technically correct) rear dropouts, and in the first sentence refers to the dropouts as "vertical."

79pmooney

Or ... use nutted hubs. With a nutted hub, setting chain "tension' (more properly called slack) correctly is easy. Granted the routine is slightly different for each bike. On one of my bikes I push the wheel back with m y left hand on the tire at the chainstays. Pull the tire over hard against the left chanstay. Tighten the right nut enough to hold. Center the tire. Check the chain slack with the wrench. If I like it, I tighten the left nut. Spin the tire and watch the chain slack. (I never want to see ti going tight.) If OK I tighten the left nut and go.

This sounds like an arduous routine. It isn't and never do you have to juggle more than one variable at a time. By contrast, setting chain tension and centering the tire using a quick release when you are tires or having a bad day can one of those juggling acts best done some other time except you gotta get home. In the dark and wet adds to the fun.

cuyd

Hey

As for dropouts, thanks for correcting me, they are quite similar to those from picture but bit more pointing downwards so I called them vertical but they are indeed of semi-horizontal type.

The bike is singlespeed on rather high gearing and I had issues with wheel being pulled in past(like when aggressively accelerating from standstill or riding uphill), but it could be due to poor quality QR skewers. Now I am using proper steel ones and they seem to hold better. I said I used tensioner(made for track dropouts), just not to tension chain but to ease and speed up wheel alignment process. The chain is being held by QR skewer(my process is to align wheel first using tensioner, then lock skewer and then loosen tensioner - so everything holds up just on QR force).

Anyway, I was just wondering are there any tugnut tensioners for frames with semi-horizontal dropouts because I've never seen ones.

JohnDThompson 

That's only an issue with open-cam type quick releases that should only be used with vertical dropouts. A traditional enclosed cam quick release doesn't have that issue.

SurferRosa

Just fyi, you've attached a photo of horizontal dropouts.

Gresp15C

What I do with nutted axles is grab the chainstay with my left hand and hook my thumb around the tire to tension the chain, tighten the DS nut, then adjust the centering of the wheel while tightening the NDS nut. I don't push very hard, and there's usually a bit of slack when I'm done.

icemilkcoffee 

But it is. The fundamental problem with traditional horizontal dropouts, is that if you tighten the QR too little, it slips. If you tighten it too much then your hub bearings are too tight. So it's a no win situation.
Someone could make a retainer washer, similar to what the OP is suggesting, that attaches to the adjuster screw, which prevents the QR axle from sliding forward on the DS dropout.

grumpus

Traditional horizontal dropouts as pictured, if they're good quality forgings, have adjustable M3x0.5 stop screws on each side; once you've set them you just have to pull the axle against the stops as you tighten the QR. Cheap or vintage plate steel dropouts don't have these, and the steel can be soft so it gets chewed up by the axle - this makes it harder to get the adjustment right, and the axle can slip. A better axle has more bite, a nutted axle with good track nuts may be easier to use and more secure. You can make small adjustments one side at a time to set the slack, using the wheel as a lever. When you're done, with the bike in a stand or hanging, pedal while looking/feeling for tight spots;- both the chainring and rear sprocket/freewheel are likely to have a degree of non-concentricity, you want to set the chain slack at the tightest point.

FBinNY 

With respect, there's a difference between correlation and causation.

QR systems are just that systems, and like all systems require multiple elements that work together. The key elements in wheel QRs include axle faces that bite into a dropout for a secure grip, a cam with adequate throw and a stop point just beyond top dead center. Excess throw beyond the top unreasonable reduces tension. While many worry about aluminum QR heads, I remind them that BITD the reliable QRs were also made of comparatively soft materials that didn't bite. That's because the Axle did that, and if one looked ar the road bikes of the era, you'd see that the outside faces of dropouts looked decent, the inner faces were seriously marred.

So, while I agree that many modern external cam QR don't hold well, it's because other parts of the system were similarly compromised. The problem isn't the type of cam, it's all the other issues, most importantly the lack of bite in axle faces.

AeroGut

Many companies make chain tensioners that attach on the dropout for this purpose. For example these: https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...45&category=54

FBinNY 

None of those is a viable option if the OP is planning to go with a fixed gear.

JohnDThompson 

I must confess, after more than half a century of riding, I haven't found that to be an issue.
Which would obviate the purpose of a quick release. May as well use a bolt-on axle in that case.

wschruba

Just FYI, there is literally one tensioner of this design made by Surly (which is, maybe ironically, where the picture that OP provided is from).

Search for a "Hurdy Gurdy".

But I also agree that OP should just get a good QR skewer/hub.

AeroGut

Please explain. I don’t know anyone using these for a bike that isn’t fixed gear or single speed. I’m sure that’s the primary market.

FBinNY 

I'm not sure I understand your point.

My statement that spring-arm tensioners were unsuited for fixed gear implied exactly what it said. Any extension to non-fixed single speeds isn't implied, so I don't see what needs explaining.


In any cast, the OP clearly emphasized that he wasn't looking for a spring-arm tensioner, so there's no logic to linking to those.

AeroGut

You didn’t say that spring arm tensioner wouldn’t work for fixed gear (which I agree with). You said that what I linked to wouldn’t work. But the link isn’t to a spring arm tensioner. It’s to exactly what the OP needs.

FBinNY 

Sorry, the link didn't open, and my mind was somewhere else.