ATL720

I am a total beginner, so I'm going to do my best to ask a good question here. I have zero experience with bikes other than riding one around as a kid. I'm the proud new owner of two late 90s Trek 720 Multitrack bikes for my wife and I. Part of the reason for the older bikes and the matching models is that I want to learn to do the work on them myself. Maybe eventually, we would upgrade components or buy new bikes, but a big part of this for me is really learning how everything works and getting my hands dirty.


I tried to look over the bikes as best I knew how when I bought them, but my wife's rear wheel is out of true. It has a noticeable wobble and brushes up against the break each rotation, although it is minor and not noticeable while riding. I only noticed while riding behind her yesterday. There are no obviously loose or broken spokes. As far as I can tell, it is not out of round. I have read the Sheldon Brown page on truing wheels, and he says that this should be the last DIY job that an aspiring bike mechanic undertakes, but it seems from the notes that this page may be out of date. I've also read the park tools page and watched some youtube videos, and it seems like it shouldn't be that hard. I obviously don't have a truing stand and would be doing it on the bike using the brake as a guide trying to get it true enough to at least avoid contact with the brake pad. So, with that said, here are my questions:

1. How bad is it to ride on this for now? Is it a stop riding and fix immediately problem? Or is it a yes fix it eventually but riding is fine for now problem?
   
2. Am I crazy to attempt to do this myself? Do I have a reasonable chance at getting it true or learning something valuable in the process? Assuming I don't do anything too crazy, do I risk anything other than the $5 tool by giving it a shot?
   

I hope to have more questions in this forum in the future, so thanks in advance for the help.

HillRider

Do you now have an understanding of how a spoked wheel is constructed, how the spokes function and how it can be trued and tensioned? Did the youtube videos and your reading give you that information? If so, begin to work on your bike's wheel but go slow. A fraction of a turn on a spoke nipple can have a measurable effect on the wheel so don't spin the spoke wrench like you are on Wheel of Fortune.

If the wheel you have is not wobbling a great deal and there are no obvious loose spokes, it can probably be ridden safely for a while.

Bill Kapaun

A $5 tool will probably cause you a lot of grief!
The spokes/nipples probably haven't had a wrench on them in about 25 years and are likely corroded tight.
A cheap wrench will just round off nipples.
If you try it, get a GOOD wrench and apply a drop of penetrating oil to each nipple first.
I get my PO in a can and use a hypo to apply the oil. You can apply a drop to the 3-4 nipples closest to the ground, give it a minute to run in, rotate the wheel 3-4 more spokes & repeat.

79pmooney

Are you prepared to admit you've failed badly and take the mess to a bike shop? If you dive in. this might ultimately be your best bail out.

Now that said - I like that you want to dive into this. So some hints. This wheel wasn't always out of true. Something changed, Spokes don't self-tighten. They may well have been built up overall too loose, but no spoke up and tightened itself. (A previous owner may have.) So 1) look for loose spokes. I like to pluck them and listen for ones with lower pitch or simply a thud sound instead of a ping. When you find a loose spoke (or one with a much higher pitched sound) look to see if the rim moves away from the loose spoke or towards the tight one. If yes, you may have just found the problem. Adjusting that spoke to the sound of its neighbors may return the wheel to close to true. If so, hurray! But - the spoke may be loose because the rim is bent toward it. If so, tightening it will make the wheel true worse.

If the issue is one or two lone spokes loosening, you may be able to make large improvements just correcting them. If it is a bent rim issue, well correcting a bent rim with spoke tension makes the overall uniformity of tension a lot worse. Better to accept that money needs to be spent on a new wheel of a rim replacement and rebuild.

In the meantime, get a good wheel building book. I like the book "Building Bicycle Wheels" by Robert Wright; long out of print but not hard to find on-line. He keeps it simple. (Was also a very good, in demand local wheel builder for the Santa Cruz racing crowd circa 1980. None of the principles have changed since then.)

ThermionicScott 

We all had to start somewhere. It's a great skill to have.

Camilo

Not crazy. Every single person, no matter how experienced they are at other aspects of bike mechanics is a rank beginner the first time they build or true a wheel.

It's not rocket science, it's actually very simple in concept and practice.

Read up on it: look at online information, watch a couple of videos and just make sure you actually understand what's going on. Then, take it slow and easy. It's not hard, you'll do fine.

andrewclaus

Look for a discarded wheel to practice on.

If there's a bike co-op in your area, they'll teach/help you.

I took a decent class in wheel building at a bike shop. I agree with Sheldon Brown about wheel building, not necessarily about truing.

My older brother gave me a spoke wrench when I was about ten, and boy did I make a mess.

pdlamb

Not crazy. And BTW the 720 is a nice bike.

If the rim is hitting the brakes, it's time to true the wheel.

Get a good spoke wrench. Stay far away from the shiny ring wrenches that fit 6 sizes. Take the bike to a nearby shop and pay $10 for the right size wrench.

If you can hear the "ping" pitch, ID the loose spokes. You may want to flag them with a scrap of masking tape, though that's optional and will change the pitch. Note that the left and right (non-drive side and drive side) are at different tones/tension; this is on purpose. My guess is there are 2-4 spokes that are unwound. Bring them up to tension, 1/4 turn at a time. For the time being, stop when the rim doesn't hit the brakes, and take your wife on a nice bike ride.

cyccommute 

Truing wheels isn’t something that is all that difficult nor is it something that should be “the last DIY job for an aspiring mechanic”. It’s relatively easy as long as you keep in mind a few things. First, and foremost, realize that the spokes tell you which way you need to move the rim. The spokes on the left of the wheel pull the spokes to the left and the ones on the right pull to the right. If the rim on the wheel is hitting the right brake, you need to pull the rim to the left by tightening the left spokes or loosening the right ones. Work on large sections of the rim if you can first. You may need to tighten or loosen several spokes across a span of rim if the wheel is largely out of true. Start in the middle and work your way out to either edge of a large section.

Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If the rim is mostly straight and doesn’t hit the brake, it is good enough. Stop there.

As has been pointed out, the spoke nipples need some lubrication before you start. Any kind of mineral oil will work. 3-in-One oil is fine as is motor oil or chain lube. Just use it sparingly as in a single drop per nipple. Oiling the nipples will make them easier to turn without rounding them off. Wipe the wheel off when you are done.

Rounding off nipples can be a problem as well. If the nipple doesn’t turn or if you try to tighten the nipples too much, the wrench can slip and cause the nipple to round. If you find that you have to struggle to get the nipple to move with only light pressure, try loosening or tightening the nipple (or two) on the other side.

Watch some videos and give it a whirl. If you can find someone to show you how in person, all the better.

RB1-luvr

go for it! It can be fun. I've had both success and failure at it. It's a fun challenge.

bluehills3149

One if the things that has changed since the days of Sheldon Brown's site (and books) is you-tube. Learning any new skill like bike mechanics with a good video is revolutionary. A picture tells a thousand words but a video is a million. So I'd say, watch a few vids and go for it.
PS I have a 720 as well. Nice bikes.

mpetry912 

ATL720 here's a way to get started:

- find the point of maximum runout (left or right deflection from some imagined wheel centerline)
- pick the group of four spokes that are on either side of that
- Trace the four spokes back to their respective hub flange. Two will be left, two will be right
- take the two spokes that are needed to "pull" the rim back into line.
- if the rim is deflected to the left, you will tighten the 2 spokes going to the right flange
- Tighten those spokes - start with 1/4 turn
- Loosen the other two spokes going to the opposite flange by the same amount
- keep going around, working a little bit at a time, until you approach a level of true-ness that you are happy with.

you can use the bike's brakes as a reference if you don't have a truing stand. The Park spoke wrench is fine for beginners.

practice practice practice and you will build your skills.

good luck with it

/markp

2old

Dig in after reading about the basics, IMO; this is the way I learned, but just make changes in small increments. The next step is building a wheel which can be accomplished in the same manner.

ATL720

Thanks everyone for all the helpful advice and encouragement. I just went down to the LBS and got the proper sized wrench and confirmed with the mechanic that it's not too bad. He thinks I can fix it. So I'm going to give it a shot in the next day or so, see what I can do, and take it to them if I can't figure it out. I'll update the thread on how it goes.

zandoval 

Playing with my Spokes, Spoke Wrench, Nipples, Tension Gunge, Truing Device, and Pinnggg, are all fun when the weathers to Cold or too Hot.

When its ridding weather its just a chore...

But it must be done so learning now on an old wheel set is a rewarding skill and admirable...

sj8070

Place your bike upside down or on a homemade stand. Using a zip tie on the frame as a reference, spin the wheel to identify the area of wobble. Make minute adjustments to the corresponding spoke nipples with a standard wrench. If the wheel veers left, tighten the right spoke or loosen the left, and vice versa. Perform small tweaks, checking the wheel spin after each. Adjust until the wheel rotates smoothly, ensuring overall spoke tension is even. Be patient and persistent, it's all about fine-tuning.....

Unca_Sam

We are glad you are learning a skill like truing a wheel! It is important to keep the concept of the wheel as a system in your head as you work. It looks like I'll be the first one to say it, and it's potentially premature, but 79pmooney hinted at it: The wheel was extremely likely sold in a round and true configuration, and something has changed to make it no longer true. More than half the time, that 'something' is damage to the system.

The spokes pulling to the opposite of the bump will do the majority of the work to true the wheel, but you'll want to spread the pulling around the rim like mpetry912 suggested. I second that you should 'pluck' the spokes like a guitar string and listen to how the tones change around the wheel to approximate how much tension each spoke is under. The goal would be to bring all the spokes on the same side of the hub to a similar tone. Since this is a rear wheel, the spokes on the side with the cogs should have a higher pitch, because they should be under a higher tension and thus have a higher pitch.

I didn't see an answer to your first question. My advice is that riding on a wheel that is out of true enough to rub the brake pads won't hurt much to get home or if you're in a pinch, but loose spokes only continue to loosen. The rim will fail once enough support is lost and you'll have a more expensive repair when that happens, so correct it sooner rather than later.

Calsun

Having built wheels for touring bikes I can say that it is not as easy as it looks to true a wheel. When a spoke on one side of the wheel is adjusted it affects the spoke(s) on the opposite side of the wheel as well. It is not difficult to find yourself chasing your tail. Minor adjustments are easy to make and likely to be more successful. Be careful as too much spoke tension can damage the rim and it could fail when your wife is on the bike.

jon c. 

When I was a teen in the 70s we didn't think twice about it. Couldn't afford bike shops and there was a bike boom so it took at least a week to get anything back from the shop if you did take it in. I suspect the steel rims of the day might have been more tolerant, but it seemed to work well enough. We didn't understand dishing and we only knew of tension as a concept. If you were starting from zero you'd go hand tight and then a few turns with the wrench. To true a wheel you just tighten a little and loosen a little until it was seemed to rotate with minimal distortion using the brake pads as a guide.

I don't now advocate doing this with no real understanding of the proper manner in which to do it, but if clueless kids didn't seem to go too far afield it isn't an impossible task.

Schweinhund

Approach a wheel as an endless arch. anything you do in one area can/will have an affect on the opposite area of the arch.
This is mostly manifested in a high low jump to the wheel.
Keep that in mind as you learn.

maddog34

just remember that it's not all "tighten".. sometimes you need to LOOSEN the opposite side spokes too.... and be mindful of up/down runout too

I work in 1/2 turns, then fine tune with 1/4 turns as needed, unless i'm tightening up a super-loose spoke... and check for any super-loose spokes BEFORE you begin truing the wheel...

and the most important thing to remember.. if you get frustrated.. set down the spoke wrench, walk away.. and don't return to it until you've calmed down.

ATL720

Alright, update everyone. I have to say I'm humbled by all of the helpful responses here. Really appreciate the help. I sat down this afternoon and used the plucking method to quickly find a couple very loose spokes. I tightened those first and then went to work with quarter turns on the wobbly sections. Pretty much every comment in this thread helped in some way. Long story short, after about 30 minutes of plucking and spinning, the wheel is true within a couple mm. No visible wobble when viewed from the rear. If you use the brake as a reference, you can still see a little wobble, but this is a 8-10 mph city cruiser, not a racing bike, so I am happy.

I have a few more issues I'm looking to fix, so I'll see you all soon

Crankycrank

Also, check your wheel for trueness after the first and several more rides and check that none of the spokes have come loose again. Hardest part of learning to play with spokes is to get a fairly even tension between them. Just takes practice.

SkinGriz

thank you.

Mtracer

I was just typing a response to encourage you to give it a go. Glad to hear you did that and you were able to resolve the actual problem.

Note: It's essentially impossible to remove all wobble. You can get close with a set of carbon rims, but common aluminum rims it's just not. Wheel truing is one of those things that aside from learning how to do things, you also need to develop a sense of when to stop trying to make it better. You just start chasing ghosts.

Good job!