Brooks B67 for touring vs B17 or Flyer
07-04-18, 06:07 PM
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I have been trying to grasp in my mind the logical physics or mechanics behind why this is so, and probably due to ignorance on the subject in general, I am grasping for straws to come up with an explanation other than "more leather" in general spread out over a bigger region?? But my gut tells me this isn't correct so I am baffled. I honestly would say that this is two completely different types of leather. It is night and day between the difference, and I was putting a lot of miles in a very short amount of time on both seats and don't understand the drastic difference between the two. In fact, with the B67 I was putting in a lot more miles on average daily than I am on the Flyer and still was hard as a rock when I passed it off to someone else. With the Flyer, I am already trying to figure out how to use the adjustment screw and learn how to dial in my bum to it now but this part is new to me.
Last edited by COBikeLover; 07-05-18 at 04:59 PM.
07-04-18, 07:37 PM
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It is a roll of the dice. I have five Conquests, four of which I bought new. Some were harder leather than others. The most recent one I bought was as hard as a chunk of concrete.
It is best to leave the adjustment alone. As you use the saddle more you might need to tighten it a bit, but trying to dial it in to what you like is not likely to work that well.
If you eventually develop a squeaking sound, in the front part of the saddle there are some places where metal rubs on metal as you load and unload the saddle. I use Brooks Proofide quite sparingly on those metal to metal contact points as a lubricating grease.
It is best to leave the adjustment alone. As you use the saddle more you might need to tighten it a bit, but trying to dial it in to what you like is not likely to work that well.
If you eventually develop a squeaking sound, in the front part of the saddle there are some places where metal rubs on metal as you load and unload the saddle. I use Brooks Proofide quite sparingly on those metal to metal contact points as a lubricating grease.
07-05-18, 09:46 AM
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I also think its a bit of luck of the draw and how one applies (doesnt apply) proofhide and or sweats. I say that because I'm pretty sure a particular trip where I did several long days in hot weather and perspired a lot helped to shape my saddle.
I like my squeaking because it only occurs when I begin spinning with little resistance and start to bounce. It acts like an analog indicator to shift up
I like my squeaking because it only occurs when I begin spinning with little resistance and start to bounce. It acts like an analog indicator to shift up
Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-05-18 at 09:49 AM.
07-05-18, 05:01 PM
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Probably valid point. I made an adjustment, rode for a bit, didn't notice anything, put it back where it was. Didn't notice anything. Haven't messed with it since.
07-05-18, 05:12 PM
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There are youtube videos and websites that tell one how to DIY measure that sit bone distance and many shops have devices that will measure it as well.
I been thinking about this post a lot. If this is my biggest contact point I have, then I should probably know that measurement more than any other measurement on my bike and have a solid understanding of this.
A "Specialized" dealer will probably have a gel board you sit on that gives you a number that corresponds to their own number system for saddles.
Yes, I could have spent more time researching the specifics about bone width versus seat, but at the time, I was on a terrible seat causing severe pain consistently and was under the gun to make a decision with information I had available. It's difficult finding a balance on knowledge because the rabbit hole always seems to go deeper...
07-06-18, 09:32 AM
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I am out of town at the moment and don't know how to make links from my cell but look at:the menu at this website for a start:
Art's Cyclery>
learning center>
how to fit
They describe a simple process of sitting on corrigated cardboard. (There are other steps as well). Pretty straight forward. When I return I'll add the link.
Art's Cyclery>
learning center>
how to fit
They describe a simple process of sitting on corrigated cardboard. (There are other steps as well). Pretty straight forward. When I return I'll add the link.
07-06-18, 10:16 AM
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I wanted to specifically create a thread for this topic because there wasn't much conversation or opinions on the matter out there when I was looking for information. This way there is a thread that folks can add to over time if they have similar questions or experience with it also.
The question I was asking, "Is the Brooks B67 good for touring compared to the Brooks B17 (or Flyer)?"
The few opinions that were out there had left me with the impression that a Brooks B67 might be a good saddle for touring and/or lots of miles in general compared to the B17 or Flyer. So I went ahead and purchased a Brooks B67 without any prior experience with any of these saddles before. In my opinion, that was a mistake for the amount of miles/kilometers I am putting an average of about 30-50 miles (50-80 kilometers) a day in, with rides often exceeding those miles, and the B67 is just too uncomfortable in certain spots when you are putting in that many miles. When you are upright the seat is comfortable, but I struggled with chaffing and a perpetual sore that I could not shake because of how wide the seat is and the extra flange that comes up on the bike due to the extra width.
I received a Flyer today and tried that out and I could notice the difference immediately after one long ride. When you are putting in that many miles, I just don't see how the B67 can be comfortable long term, and that is with wearing padded shorts the entire time. It creates a problem just outside the padding on your bum where the difference in the B67 wideness takes place. For some strange reason the Flyer doesn't seem as spongee as the B67 either.
I have also heard people claim in other threads about these seats and the spring "squeaking." I don't have this problem with either seat and they are both very quiet compared to some things I have seen others say about them.
After I get some more miles in I will update this if anything changes...but if you are unsure of which seat to get for touring between the B67 or the B17 or the Flyer and posting the same questions to Google, then this thread is for you. I would definitely go with the B17 or the Flyer for long miles in general or touring. I guess the other thing I realized "after" is that when you are looking at all the pictures of touring bikes in general, it is extremely rare to see a B67 on one of them. There must be a reason for this. If the B67 really was that comfortable or more comfortable then folks would be using them more on touring bikes. But they are not and I made a purchased based on a small minority recommendations instead of just looking at what the norm is.
Add any other feedback you might have as time goes on. I just wanted this thread up so nobody makes the same mistake I did if they have no prior knowledge with these seats either.
The question I was asking, "Is the Brooks B67 good for touring compared to the Brooks B17 (or Flyer)?"
The few opinions that were out there had left me with the impression that a Brooks B67 might be a good saddle for touring and/or lots of miles in general compared to the B17 or Flyer. So I went ahead and purchased a Brooks B67 without any prior experience with any of these saddles before. In my opinion, that was a mistake for the amount of miles/kilometers I am putting an average of about 30-50 miles (50-80 kilometers) a day in, with rides often exceeding those miles, and the B67 is just too uncomfortable in certain spots when you are putting in that many miles. When you are upright the seat is comfortable, but I struggled with chaffing and a perpetual sore that I could not shake because of how wide the seat is and the extra flange that comes up on the bike due to the extra width.
I received a Flyer today and tried that out and I could notice the difference immediately after one long ride. When you are putting in that many miles, I just don't see how the B67 can be comfortable long term, and that is with wearing padded shorts the entire time. It creates a problem just outside the padding on your bum where the difference in the B67 wideness takes place. For some strange reason the Flyer doesn't seem as spongee as the B67 either.
I have also heard people claim in other threads about these seats and the spring "squeaking." I don't have this problem with either seat and they are both very quiet compared to some things I have seen others say about them.
After I get some more miles in I will update this if anything changes...but if you are unsure of which seat to get for touring between the B67 or the B17 or the Flyer and posting the same questions to Google, then this thread is for you. I would definitely go with the B17 or the Flyer for long miles in general or touring. I guess the other thing I realized "after" is that when you are looking at all the pictures of touring bikes in general, it is extremely rare to see a B67 on one of them. There must be a reason for this. If the B67 really was that comfortable or more comfortable then folks would be using them more on touring bikes. But they are not and I made a purchased based on a small minority recommendations instead of just looking at what the norm is.
Add any other feedback you might have as time goes on. I just wanted this thread up so nobody makes the same mistake I did if they have no prior knowledge with these seats either.
05-23-19, 11:48 AM
#33
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That surprises me 100+km's a day on a "mountain bike" on B67. I was doing similar and since I changed over to the flyer I couldn't be happier. There are aspects I did like about the B67 for complete upright position but overall for combined positions, I just couldn't find the same comfort.
05-23-19, 06:22 PM
#35
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It is indeed a mountain bike, a 1992 Marin Pine Mountain to be exact. You can find the catalog specs here: Pine Mountain | Marin Catalogue 1992 | Retrobike
At the time most mtb's were both rigid frame and fork, and (happily for many budget tour cyclists) often with similar geometry and material components that make them good loaded touring platforms. This bike in particular has served me well over the years running the gambit of several conversions, most recently with the addition of a low travel suspension fork that oddly came off what might be considered a Hybrid bike (an e bike).
26" bikes are almost never referred to as hybrids though. That is a term that was coined in the 90's for 700c bikes that tried to bridge the gap between road and trail use. What people today would call gravel bikes but with a more upright flat bar look. Older 26" bikes were referred to as All Terrain Bikes - ATB's (actually the original term for MTB's) and this bike would certainly fit into that category. As well as the original purpose made mtbs, they have also been used as platforms for commuter, touring, gravel, utility and drop bar conversions.
A bit more history. The technical downhill mtb's of today bear little resemblance to the original atb/mtb but they were considered a godsend of innovation at the time because they offered something other than the dropbar ten speed. Before 1982-84 off road riders converted (there's that word again) cruisers and other bike frames, sometimes with motocross bars into what were called "Klunkers" to do what they called "repack riding" (because they had to repack the brake drum with grease after a long downhill ride). This new fad centered around Marin County CA - where the Marin bike company gets it's name. Tom Ritchey just did a pod cast where he talks about how he also did gravel bike riding in the Sierra Nevada's then and how the two emerging genres cross pollinated.
Around 82/84 builders like Ritchey and bike companies began putting out purpose build mtb bikes for off road. The geometry was better than road geometry and they had flat bars instead of drops. They were still pretty sketchy as they often poached road components like caliper brakes or 2x5 drivetrains and they were overbuilt and heavy. By the end of the 80's though high quality mtb's were being made by all the major players for a niche that grew and grew and the rest is history.
Here's a link to a recent day trip we did using the bike that ran the spectrum from paved - gravel - singletrack - no track: https://www.bikeforums.net/cyclocros...er-valley.html
Note I still use the B67 seat
Last edited by Happy Feet; 05-24-19 at 05:17 PM.
05-24-19, 07:12 PM
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that was a very interesting and informative bit of history there. thanks! and nice bike 
this thread sure took a turn tho...
this thread sure took a turn tho...
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12-28-19, 12:58 PM
#37
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Since this is an old thread I hope I will be excused for bringing it back with a slightly different question but this discussion bears on an issue I have. I am turning my Trek Marlin hardtail into a touring bike and am now researching saddles. I do not know a lot about bike geometry but it is my impression that the frame geometry of a classic touring bike will differ from that of a hardtail MTB. I had just about decided to buy a Brooks England Flyer but this discussion makes me wonder.
Is there some reason the Flyer would not be a good choice for a MTB such as mine?
Is there some reason the Flyer would not be a good choice for a MTB such as mine?
12-28-19, 08:40 PM
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Since this is an old thread I hope I will be excused for bringing it back with a slightly different question but this discussion bears on an issue I have. I am turning my Trek Marlin hardtail into a touring bike and am now researching saddles. I do not know a lot about bike geometry but it is my impression that the frame geometry of a classic touring bike will differ from that of a hardtail MTB. I had just about decided to buy a Brooks England Flyer but this discussion makes me wonder.
Is there some reason the Flyer would not be a good choice for a MTB such as mine?
Is there some reason the Flyer would not be a good choice for a MTB such as mine?
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12-28-19, 09:47 PM
#39
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No, nothing technical. Just relatively smooth double track as well as rails trails and hard bike path trails. I do not know for sure but my guess is my position on the bike is more like a 60 degree angle than one more aggressive or more upright, but I think a true touring bike probably has a longer wheelbase and smaller wheels (my bike is a 29er), if that matters.
12-29-19, 01:43 AM
#40
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Since this is an old thread I hope I will be excused for bringing it back with a slightly different question but this discussion bears on an issue I have. I am turning my Trek Marlin hardtail into a touring bike and am now researching saddles. I do not know a lot about bike geometry but it is my impression that the frame geometry of a classic touring bike will differ from that of a hardtail MTB. I had just about decided to buy a Brooks England Flyer but this discussion makes me wonder.
Is there some reason the Flyer would not be a good choice for a MTB such as mine?
Is there some reason the Flyer would not be a good choice for a MTB such as mine?
As a light rider, I found the springs to be rather stiff, they have seemed to soften a bit after lots of riding and do take the edge off pothole edge whacks a bit.
They are pretty heavy though, close to twice my lightest b17 if I recall, weighed them all once.
12-29-19, 02:02 AM
#41
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Looked up the Trek Marlin 7 and it appears to be a pretty upright hardtail. While any saddle can fit any bike there are a couple of notes about the Flyer and Brooks in general.
1. The flyer is sprung and pretty heavy. A little out of place on a modern bike like that.
2. It, the B67 and the B17 are all leather. On an mtb that will go off road that may or may not be a good idea. If you are stuck on Brooks perhaps look at the C series line. They come in sizes and design from the B17 style to an upright model. Scroll down the page a bit to see the C series saddles https://www.brooksengland.com/en_row/saddles.html
While I like Brooks leather saddles for touring I don't really feel the need for one until I'm doing higher mileage or longer hours. Until then there are a lot of other options that may be lighter and more weather resistant.
I posted this before but will again as it gives a good guide as to posture for the Brooks C line.
I recently swapped out my B67 on my fatbike because I started doing a lot more mtbing with it and I worried about water damage. I bought a Fabric Scoop saddle instead. On their website you can look at various models and note the posture icons in the lower right hand corner of each window. That gives some indication of the style and posture it suits. https://fabric.cc/products/saddles/
1. The flyer is sprung and pretty heavy. A little out of place on a modern bike like that.
2. It, the B67 and the B17 are all leather. On an mtb that will go off road that may or may not be a good idea. If you are stuck on Brooks perhaps look at the C series line. They come in sizes and design from the B17 style to an upright model. Scroll down the page a bit to see the C series saddles https://www.brooksengland.com/en_row/saddles.html
While I like Brooks leather saddles for touring I don't really feel the need for one until I'm doing higher mileage or longer hours. Until then there are a lot of other options that may be lighter and more weather resistant.
I posted this before but will again as it gives a good guide as to posture for the Brooks C line.
I recently swapped out my B67 on my fatbike because I started doing a lot more mtbing with it and I worried about water damage. I bought a Fabric Scoop saddle instead. On their website you can look at various models and note the posture icons in the lower right hand corner of each window. That gives some indication of the style and posture it suits. https://fabric.cc/products/saddles/
Last edited by Happy Feet; 12-29-19 at 02:09 AM.
12-29-19, 02:15 PM
#43
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08-13-20, 02:07 AM
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Resurrecting a 10 year old thread?
It's interesting that all the conversations I have seen saying anything about the two don't address the issue of what to do if you don't sit upright, but have a wide sit bone gap.
B17 is too Narrow, B67 looks like a raw thigh party for touring at 60º or less. I wish Brooks made a B19 (B17 style at the wider C19 width).
Is anyone else in the same boat? Sit bone width >140mm, riding angle <60º
What did you find worked for you?
B17 is too Narrow, B67 looks like a raw thigh party for touring at 60º or less. I wish Brooks made a B19 (B17 style at the wider C19 width).
Is anyone else in the same boat? Sit bone width >140mm, riding angle <60º
What did you find worked for you?
08-13-20, 06:08 AM
#45
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My sitbones are at 141mm. So far..the most comfortable saddle for me is a Brooks B17/Imperial (B17 with a cutout). Followed by a B17 standard, followed by a C17 cutout. C17 standard..doesn't work for me..but I keep trying.
I'm interested in trying a Flyer at some point..looking for one at the right price..
I'm interested in trying a Flyer at some point..looking for one at the right price..
08-13-20, 09:25 AM
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I really like the upright position and was for the most part comfortable on the B67. If I was doing around town kind of thing on a regular basis, under 30 miles, or had a great cruiser, I would put it back on my bike for sure. I just couldn't get it to work with that many miles no matter how long I spent trying to get the right adjustment.
.
.
I agree with you......lack of information before my purchase.
This seat is now on my town bike.......and yes, I sit completely upright and it is very comfortable.
08-14-20, 04:10 AM
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My experience exactly. The B67 was my first Brooks. Very comfortable out of the box and around town. Then I went on a 1500 mile tour and received the same abrasions you described. I used trekking bars so I wasn't completely upright at the time. I also had aerobars to fight the great plains head winds. This is where the trouble started.
I agree with you......lack of information before my purchase.
This seat is now on my town bike.......and yes, I sit completely upright and it is very comfortable.
I agree with you......lack of information before my purchase.
This seat is now on my town bike.......and yes, I sit completely upright and it is very comfortable.
I am thinking of trying the Selle Royal Scientia M3. If I can get one for sale around here I will report back on whether it turns out to be any good for long rides.
08-14-20, 08:28 AM
#48
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A bit of trivia for those following in others tire prints........
My Ogre rocks a Flyer Special saddle but the black springs didn't appeal to my sense of aesthetic.
I found the B67 chrome ones appear to have fitted just fine as a straight swap.
The chrome ones are available new and I got mine from SJS cycles in the UK if memory serves.
Maybe best to be aware they come in a left and right hand side.
My Ogre rocks a Flyer Special saddle but the black springs didn't appeal to my sense of aesthetic.
I found the B67 chrome ones appear to have fitted just fine as a straight swap.
The chrome ones are available new and I got mine from SJS cycles in the UK if memory serves.
Maybe best to be aware they come in a left and right hand side.
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