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School me on Suntour

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School me on Suntour

Old 12-11-19, 12:31 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Is this Suntour's intended setup, or simply what works?
No idea, but most likely SunTour's intended setup. In my experience, most brakes are designed to be used without ferrules. I haven't found this to be a problem: Shimano's modern dual-pivot calipers are widely regarded to be some of the nicest-feeling calipers out there, and they're not intended to use ferrules. The T610 v-brakes on my gravel bike have a ton of mechanical advantage, and I have to set them fairly close to the rims by necessity. They lack ferrules, but in dry weather, in power and modulation they feel about as good as the hydro discs on my MTB:



(I also set these up without a barrel adjuster, although that's not necessarily a choice I'd recommend!)
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Old 12-11-19, 12:45 AM
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DD getting into Japanese components? Must not just be getting cold above ground!
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Old 12-11-19, 02:30 AM
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I have an original matching 1st gen superbe groupo on my Paino including inner and outer cables and they dont use ferrules cable end crimps. Original outer cables are slightly fatter, .2 of a mm? Makes a difference still. Inner cables are thicker with soldered ends.

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Old 12-11-19, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Put a 1st gen 6 speed friction Sprint (under 28 teeth) up against anything after hard mileage. Deadpool tight. Still have it.
This - the Sprint stuff should not be overlooked. My Faggin was equipped with Sprint. Both the indexed shifting and the brakes worked very well. I was especially surprised by the brake performance - it was a world better than the previous generation Superbe stuff I had.
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Old 12-11-19, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Well, I did get both as a set, for a great price, so I'll try them both together. Besides, the point is to end up, eventually, with a bike that has little to no Campagnolo as is the norm for all my other rides.

DD
Got it. I rode a full Superbe Trek 760 for over twenty years. Somewhere along the way, I got the idea that I'd replace the Superbe derailleur with NR. That lasted about two weeks before I switched back.

After getting back into vintage bikes about ten years ago, I mostly wound up with Campagnolo NR/SR-equipped bikes. I built my Griffon with full Superbe though:



The only Campy bits are the headset and the Doppler shifters. I'm not totally enamored with the Dopplers. Based on my short experience, I don't find them any better than Simplex/Huret Retrofriction shifters, so I might swap them out for something else (perhaps Dia-Compe ENE). That will wait until the spring though. I'll fiddle with them some more before completely giving up.
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Old 12-11-19, 11:58 AM
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Scroll down the page at this site to Suntour catalogs in Japan.
The catalogs of Japanese vintage bicycle
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Old 12-12-19, 02:58 PM
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I've been perusing old Suntour cable sets on Ebay and guess what? They have ferrules in them!

You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize that most cable sets I see have some sort of ferrule at the transition - even if they are only plastic/nylon, there always seems to be something. So, I will stick with my bias (or whatever you want to call it) and will build this up using ferrules at both ends of the housing. I get that some of you don't, and the braking works for you and that's cool - but have you ever stopped to think if you might see an improvement in braking feel if you were to add the missing pieces?

Off to the bike shop for some housing and ferrules

DD
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Old 12-12-19, 03:27 PM
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I haven't been paying close attention to this thread. My take on ferrules is that if the port was intended to take a ferrule, the cable fit in the port (lever or caliper) will be sloppy without one. If a ferrule fits, I use one. If not, then I go without. I've never considered the issue of beveled or flat bottom, but will pay closer attention in the future.
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Old 12-12-19, 03:37 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
I've been perusing old Suntour cable sets on Ebay and guess what? They have ferrules in them!
The ones I just looked at seemed to only have ferrules on one end, and based on the direction the cable was loaded into the housing, it seems to be the end that goes into the brake lever. Not the end that goes into the brake caliper.

I get that some of you don't, and the braking works for you and that's cool - but have you ever stopped to think if you might see an improvement in braking feel if you were to add the missing pieces?
Sure, when pieces are missing.
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Old 12-12-19, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Cool - but does is this brakeset one of those designed to work without ferrules? I don't know - I haven't used Superbe brakes since the mid-80s.

Bias? If you mean my habit using ferrules at each end of the housing when installing Campy brakes, well, that's not bias - it's textbook installation.
I don't remember what the tech manual for Superbe brakes said, but it would have been standard good practice to use ferrules at both ends that time. Yeah, it makes them feel more solid and precise. It would have been weird to buy a very expensive top end brakeset and then take shortcuts in set up. Superbe were essentially campy copies, so it's hard to believe the factory recommendation would have been any different than campy. It is possible, but I think unlikely. If anyone still has the tech sheet, please share... There are partly stepped down ferrules that should work for this particular application. If i had to guess I'd say that's what was used.
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Old 12-12-19, 04:31 PM
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Suntour sure has a lot of variety, I must have 10 different types of shifters, 4 friction, Power levers, stem ratchet levers, and two sets of barend ratchet, and 3 types of index sets. I even still have a couple of the braided cables and coil outers.


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Old 12-12-19, 05:23 PM
  #37  
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DD,
The missing part of this discussion is the size of the cable housing. Three different sizes, and three different ferrule sizes. 4mm is a standard size for housing in Shimano indexing system. 5mm is a standard size for both Shimano index shift cables using the radial inner wires, and some brake cables that use bias wound cables. And lastly 6mm bias wound cables used for brake cables. The 5mm cable when used as a replacement for brakes need a ferrule to keep the cable centered in both the lever and the caliper.
The pics of a Superbe cable above is of a 6mm cable housing that fits snugly in the barrel adjuster. I have enclosed a pic of the Campy lever and the size of the cable receptor. And pics of the ferrules for a 5mm housing. The steel ones are the ones needed for brakes and the plastic ones are used for shift cable where the reinforcement of the cable end is not needed. Smiles, MH
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Old 12-12-19, 06:05 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
DD,
The missing part of this discussion is the size of the cable housing. Three different sizes, and three different ferrule sizes. 4mm is a standard size for housing in Shimano indexing system. 5mm is a standard size for both Shimano index shift cables using the radial inner wires, and some brake cables that use bias wound cables. And lastly 6mm bias wound cables used for brake cables. The 5mm cable when used as a replacement for brakes need a ferrule to keep the cable centered in both the lever and the caliper.
The pics of a Superbe cable above is of a 6mm cable housing that fits snugly in the barrel adjuster. I have enclosed a pic of the Campy lever and the size of the cable receptor. And pics of the ferrules for a 5mm housing. The steel ones are the ones needed for brakes and the plastic ones are used for shift cable where the reinforcement of the cable end is not needed. Smiles, MH
Right you are, we haven't discussed is the sizes of the housing involved. In my case, the Suntour adjuster socket is 5mm and the Campy one is 6mm. I measured the Campy ferrule and it works out almost exactly as 6mm, meaning the housing is just a little smaller than that.

Wasn't able to find anything today but I did get a good deal on a bulk purchase of derailleur and brake cable inners. I love Recycled Cycles

DD
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Old 12-12-19, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
I haven't been paying close attention to this thread. My take on ferrules is that if the port was intended to take a ferrule, the cable fit in the port (lever or caliper) will be sloppy without one. If a ferrule fits, I use one. If not, then I go without. I've never considered the issue of beveled or flat bottom, but will pay closer attention in the future.
Same here. But as I continue to look around online, it appears that the original cable sets provided only one set of ferrules, to be used at the brake lever port, I assume. But the whole idea of a beveled port that receives a straight-cut housing end really bugs me, because it doesn't result in a solid feel. Swapping out the alloy Suntour adjusters with steel Campy ones will do the trick for now.

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Old 12-12-19, 06:17 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
Suntour sure has a lot of variety...

Right? That's part of the problem it seems. Btw, I like this black/silver version of their shift levers. Is this one of the pairs you are willing to let go?

DD
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Old 12-12-19, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
The ones I just looked at seemed to only have ferrules on one end, and based on the direction the cable was loaded into the housing, it seems to be the end that goes into the brake lever. Not the end that goes into the brake caliper.
I see that, too. And I also assume the ferrule goes at the lever/cable interface. So at least I know now not to go with the spendy old-school stuff and will stick with my "upgrade" instead

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Old 12-12-19, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
I don't remember what the tech manual for Superbe brakes said, but it would have been standard good practice to use ferrules at both ends that time. Yeah, it makes them feel more solid and precise. It would have been weird to buy a very expensive top end brakeset and then take shortcuts in set up. Superbe were essentially campy copies, so it's hard to believe the factory recommendation would have been any different than campy. It is possible, but I think unlikely. If anyone still has the tech sheet, please share... There are partly stepped down ferrules that should work for this particular application. If i had to guess I'd say that's what was used.
I have looked around a bit trying to find tech manual information, too, but so far no soap. That's the kind of no-****, straight from the manufacturer's mouth kind of direction I was hoping to locate. Alas...

A partly stepped down ferrule would be perfect!

DD
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Old 12-12-19, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
...The steel ones are the ones needed for brakes and the plastic ones are used for shift cable where the reinforcement of the cable end is not needed. Smiles, MH
I believe that shift cable housing ferrules are plastic because it allows the sharp ends of the housing wires to embed slightly, so as to even up the compressive stress on all of the wires.
There are also metal versions for the ends of the rear derailer housing loop, but always with a plastic seating washer inside.
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Old 12-13-19, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Right? That's part of the problem it seems. Btw, I like this black/silver version of their shift levers. Is this one of the pairs you are willing to let go?

DD
Yes, those are the Black Line model. They use the same hardware bits as the picture above it.

I read above that you have Campy mix in the make. That stuff is a drug hard to get off once you start. For your build I recommend Cyclone hubs on Campy Victory rims, something like that would be golden on you build. The hubs are like Specialized sealed set freewheel.


But the rims may not be of your likes, tubular.
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Old 12-13-19, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
Suntour sure has a lot of variety, I must have 10 different types of shifters, 4 friction, Power levers, stem ratchet levers, and two sets of barend ratchet, and 3 types of index sets. I even still have a couple of the braided cables and coil outers.
Suntour certainly offered a wide selection, including the Symmetric down tube shifters with auto-trim. I have a set but have never mounted them.
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Old 12-13-19, 02:38 PM
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Personally I love the Cyclone stuff. Works awesome. The price point is usually not bad either.
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Old 12-13-19, 03:05 PM
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Seems I had it all wrong for decades. I just mounted my SunTour derailleurs, found whatever ferrule in my spare parts (or none) that seemed to work best and rode that derailleur until the pivots loosened up beyond acceptable or I crashed it, then replaced it with the next SunTour (or rebuilt with new upper or lower and rode on. Had no idea I was angering the gods or breaking immutable laws. Never, ever had to replace a SunTour because of issues with cable housings. (Occasionally I'd have a ferrule that didn't work. I'd just replace it with better or none.)

I see no mystique re: SunTour derailleurs. They simply work; very well. Idiotically simple to set up. If there are immutable laws that must be honored, I guess they got implanted in my brain or soul from an outside source. I never recall reading instructions. They don't last forever. All the pivots and hinges wear out from shifting. Takes quite a while. Very good design so a lot of slop is acceptable with shifting that works well but eventually ... (Unless you choose not to shift. )

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Old 12-13-19, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by crank_addict View Post
Suntour certainly offered a wide selection, including the Symmetric down tube shifters with auto-trim. I have a set but have never mounted them.
The auto-trims are very nice shifting. I have them on a 7-speed bike. I have the Superbe (Symmetric?) on my TiCycles and love them also, but they are just very nice traditional shifters set where my knees don't hit them. (FD trimming is by hand like it always was.)

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Old 12-13-19, 03:17 PM
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The only time I've ever seen sloppy cable performance from "missing" ferrules is when using shift/index housing with a friction rear derailleur. I won't ever do that again.
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Old 12-13-19, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
The only time I've ever seen sloppy cable performance from "missing" ferrules is when using shift/index housing with a friction rear derailleur. I won't ever do that again.
I've had the same problem, and found that some of the strands of the housing had made their way into the tiny hole in the housing stop for the cable's path.
Yet I have also had good luck with running naked 4mm derailer housing into a Simplex Prestige, seems that if the cable housing loop is nice and short that it exits straighter from the port in the derailer, so stays seated better. Also, the original housing back then was slender 4mm stuff having a textured vinyl covering, so the cable port is too small for a modern ferrule.
I also never "slam" the lever toward the largest cog, which greatly reduces the maximum tension stress that the cabling sees, and with the housing strands embedding in the plastic of the derailer knuckle it seems to be ok this way.
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