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Why Reinvent the Wheel? (aka another Campagnolo rant)

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Why Reinvent the Wheel? (aka another Campagnolo rant)

Old 03-31-20, 03:10 PM
  #101  
HTupolev
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
argumentum ad populum
The post you're responding to isn't saying that Campy's lack of popularity indicates that their stuff sucks, it's saying that Campy's lack of popularity is a thing that exists.
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Old 03-31-20, 03:11 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Argumentum ad podium?
*golf clap*
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Old 03-31-20, 03:19 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Straw man alert? Y'all are comparing distribution inadequacies instead of products and their intended competition. They're hanging US retailers out to dry by not stopping gray market goods (which is probably why they're not too well represented in the US) and shortchanging US customers on support and y'all are listing that as a benefit. What's next - I know a guy that knows a guy that found some wheelsets that fell off the back of a truck, so therefor value should be established based upon that? Gimme a break.
Difficult situation.. is it the manufacturer's responsibility to fix a country's horrible distribution efficiency? Go to eg. Merlin.com and instead pick the UK as the Delivery Country; you'll find Campy and Fulcrum pretty much just as value priced on the lower end (sub 400 pounds).
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Old 03-31-20, 03:19 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Those are the numbers that are published. They're also an indication of what the people who know what they're doing are doing, and that's running not-Campy. Do you have literally any evidence to back up your assertions? Race pics? Anything?
Regardless of whether you're pro- or anti-Campy, using triathletes as an example of "people who know what they're doing" makes me laugh, given they're known for pissing (and ****ting) in their shorts to save time during a race.
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Old 03-31-20, 03:25 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
OT, but...
Campy's 12 speed 11-34, is appropriately spaced, with the 11-17 straight block and the proper 19T following that. The 22-25-29-34 are as evenly spaced as possible. Shimano's 11-13-15-17 would drive a seasoned road rider crazy. Big jumps where you don't want them and too-small percentages between the largest sprockets. Shimano starts with a 15% jump instead of 8%. Campy ends with a 15% jump, which makes sense, since it's occurs when you're most likely pedaling in the 70-85 rpm range and the cadence difference between shifts is about 10 rpm. Works great for me on 12% grades, at age 66, with two knee replacements. Keeping my weight down to 138-142 helps with the climbing. When I was younger I usually weighed 134 in the season.
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Old 03-31-20, 03:28 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
The post you're responding to isn't saying that Campy's lack of popularity indicates that their stuff sucks, it's saying that Campy's lack of popularity is a thing that exists.
In that case ignoratio elenchi
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Old 03-31-20, 03:30 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by abshipp View Post
But most importantly, they're hideous.

I thought Bontrager's paired spoke stuff was bad, but man...
.
It doesn't bother me that much.. an old pic with my Eurus wheelset. I know, I'm supposed to go wider so I'm more aero and my tires can be that much more comfy. Someday soon, I promise

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Old 03-31-20, 03:37 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Campy's 12 speed 11-34, is appropriately spaced, with the 11-17 straight block and the proper 19T following that. The 22-25-29-34 are as evenly spaced as possible. Shimano's 11-13-15-17 would drive a seasoned road rider crazy. Big jumps where you don't want them and too-small percentages between the largest sprockets. Shimano starts with a 15% jump instead of 8%. Campy ends with a 15% jump, which makes sense, since it's occurs when you're most likely pedaling in the 70-85 rpm range and the cadence difference between shifts is about 10 rpm. Works great for me on 12% grades, at age 66, with two knee replacements. Keeping my weight down to 138-142 helps with the climbing. When I was younger I usually weighed 134 in the season.
Maybe Shimano thinks most people who need a 34 tooth cassette are more interested in tight spacing on the low end rather than on the high end.
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Old 03-31-20, 03:48 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
The 22-25-29-34 are as evenly spaced as possible.
I'll buy "evenly" on an 11-34, but not "closely."
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Old 03-31-20, 03:49 PM
  #110  
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I should revise my statement about people not looking beyond their local shop, by adding - for wheels, frames and groupsets. Looking at what people ride at your latest club ride or charity event are the same people who've never looked outside their local shop for anything, so they all ride Shimano or SRAM equipped bikes from Giant, Trek, Specialized or Cannondale. Nothing else exists for these folks. In case you haven't noticed, none of these brands sells a prebuilt bike with Campy. The last prebuilt bike I owned I bought in 1992, with Shimano 8 speed STI of course.

I've had 4 Colnagos, 4 LOOK, 1 Fondriest, 1 Tommasini, 1 Litespeed and 1 Cervelo, plus from the older days, 3 Cannondales and a Centurian. At least the newest Cannondale was one of those $400 frame-only specials that Cannondale used to offer, built up with Campy to make it respectable.
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Old 03-31-20, 03:57 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
I should revise my statement about people not looking beyond their local shop, by adding - for wheels, frames and groupsets. Looking at what people ride at your latest club ride or charity event are the same people who've never looked outside their local shop for anything, so they all ride Shimano or SRAM equipped bikes from Giant, Trek, Specialized or Cannondale. Nothing else exists for these folks. In case you haven't noticed, none of these brands sells a prebuilt bike with Campy. The last prebuilt bike I owned I bought in 1992, with Shimano 8 speed STI of course.

I've had 4 Colnagos, 4 LOOK, 1 Fondriest, 1 Tommasini, 1 Litespeed and 1 Cervelo, plus from the older days, 3 Cannondales and a Centurian. At least the newest Cannondale was one of those $400 frame-only specials that Cannondale used to offer, built up with Campy to make it respectable.
So you're saying Campy isn't rare, it's just rare in any large group of cyclists.

Ok.
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Old 03-31-20, 04:05 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
So you're saying Campy isn't rare, it's just rare in any large group of cyclists.

Ok.
No, no, no - he's just saying that it's only rare if you're looking at your local shop or with any cyclists that you personally know or may come in to contact with, that's all.
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Old 03-31-20, 04:24 PM
  #113  
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I'll be the outlier here
In SoCal
1/2 to 1/3 of the riders in our Road group are on Campy, but not Campy wheels
Would not mind a set of WTO wheels, but Hunt, Reynolds, and ebay ZIPP wheels are what I ride on
Actually like the way Bora wheels look

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Old 03-31-20, 04:30 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
So you're saying Campy isn't rare, it's just rare in any large group of cyclists.

Ok.
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
No, no, no - he's just saying that it's only rare if you're looking at your local shop or with any cyclists that you personally know or may come in to contact with, that's all.
In my experience, Campagnolo is not that rare among people who build their own bikes. Among people who buy complete bikes, it's practically non-existent.
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Old 03-31-20, 04:35 PM
  #115  
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If you went on a group ride in Europe, the percentage of Campy equipped bikes would be much larger, just like the percentage of Mercedes, Porsche and Alfa Romeo cars on the road. So what you are lamely trying to imply is Campy is undesirable, like Mercedes, Porsche and Alfa Romeo, because you don't see a lot of them in the USA. Campy is not a particularly small company. The company is financially sound and sells all of the products that they have the capacity to make. They don't need to be the biggest to have exceptional quality.
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Old 03-31-20, 04:38 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Straw man alert? Y'all are comparing distribution inadequacies instead of products and their intended competition. They're hanging US retailers out to dry by not stopping gray market goods (which is probably why they're not too well represented in the US) and shortchanging US customers on support and y'all are listing that as a benefit. What's next - I know a guy that knows a guy that found some wheelsets that fell off the back of a truck, so therefor value should be established based upon that? Gimme a break.
Nope, no one here is even talking about that except you. And this goes for every brand: only uninformed saps pay retail so why would I even make a price comparison using retail prices? That would be idiotic. I can buy Campagnolo from Europe for cheaper than my lbs here can order it at their cost, and faster to boot. Shimano used to be real cheap until they decided to not let the public in the U.S. buy it from other sources.

No one here is implying you should buy from someone at the back of a truck and you know it. I only buy from reputable places and make sure to price match whenever possible. It’s not that hard to do.
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Old 03-31-20, 04:42 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
If you went on a group ride in Europe, the percentage of Campy equipped bikes would be much larger, just like the percentage of Mercedes, Porsche and Alfa Romeo cars on the road. So what you are lamely trying to imply is Campy is undesirable, like Mercedes, Porsche and Alfa Romeo, because you don't see a lot of them in the USA. Campy is not a particularly small company. The company is financially sound and sells all of the products that they have the capacity to make. They don't need to be the biggest to have exceptional quality.
Mercedes, Porsche and Alfa Romeo cars are quite popular here, perhaps if you used, Skoda, Opel and Citroen as examples
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Old 03-31-20, 04:43 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Those are the numbers that are published. They're also an indication of what the people who know what they're doing are doing, and that's running not-Campy. Do you have literally any evidence to back up your assertions? Race pics? Anything?
I can turn that around and ask you for pics to back up anything you say. See how easy that is? I do 10-12k miles a year and I have seen many triathletes running Campy and I know a few of them. But then the ones that do tend to be techy types for some reason (same as me) and we appreciate quality, great engineering and high resale value.
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Old 03-31-20, 04:51 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Cost-per-quality, not quality...
Yes, exactly. And we are talking about wheels here, where Campagnolo cost per quality is, objectively (or somewhat objectively), excellent.

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
So I should be impressed by the Scirocco Disc, with its $680 msrp, 1740g, and very limited tubeless compatibility? And then wowed but the Zonda Disc, a $900 MSRP wheelset weighing in at 1675g, with no tubeless compatibility, and wide-for-a-decade-ago 17mm interior rim width? And then absolutely blown over by the Shamal Ultra Disc, a $1500, ~1600g wheelset with 30mm deep, 22.5mm wide aluminum rims?
Nobody is paying those prices. See below for more. And the fact that you can find them at prices less than MSRP isn't somehow indicative of a "leaky distribution network."

Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
@WhyFi This isn't about facts, quality, or value. Campagnolo are artisans from Yurope, everything else is terrible and awful.
Right, because it's so cool to belittle anyone that took the time to learn a craft, or a skill or a trade. Respecting people who have mastered a difficult job is for losers, right? It's like that "About Us" video on the Enve website that actively and strongly discourages me from ever buying their products.

Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
I'm just not really sure how to respond to the implication that non-Campy hubs are generally poorly-serviceable, don't perform exceptionally, aren't durable, and are expensive.

The hub market seems to have this weird issue where a few of the boutique brands are unreliable, and as a consequence, some people seem to assume that the market as a whole is a catastrophic mine field where it's difficult to find anything that works great. It is not. Wheel bearings and spoke drilling and attaching a wheel to a bicycle are all problems that were mostly solved a century ago. A few designers have chosen to un-solve them, but by and large, stuff works.
I just don't understand what problems I'm supposed to be experiencing here as a consequence of not using adjustable-bearing Campy hubs. What the "little more" is that I'm supposed to expect if I would only use Campy hubs instead of other brands.

In the case of ENVE specifically, I would say that it's a complicated issue that depends significantly on what you're doing with the wheels, and possibly even what specific tires you want to use. And, of course, on how you value the dollar.

In 2020, 17mm internal on a clincher is narrow.
In the course of doing some research and shopping around, I saw a lot more hub related complaints pertaining to other brands, so that is where it's coming from. The main culprit here is Mavic, who are a big name in the market and a major competitor to Campagnolo. I don't see how anyone can do even the slightest bit of research about their stuff and still decide to buy them, especially considering the price compared to another major brand like Campagnolo.

Even with some of the smaller or more specialized brands, there aren't too many issues with initial quality, but plenty of complaints about longer term issues and premature failure (and related issues with servicing and spares).

As for ENVE, their top of the line (or at least much more expensive than Campagnolo equivalent) carbon deep rims come will steel cartridge bearings. Yeah, yeah, they are "fine" and good enough, but why pay more for less?

Lastly, on Zonda width, as someone pointed out they can actually handle tires that are way wider than most would even consider for a performance road wheel. Again, 1550g, excellent braking performance (rim), top quality loose ball hubs, nearly indestructible construction, for $350.

Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Those commenting on the MSRP of Campy wheels are grasping at straws, trying to disprove their value. The last set of zondas I bought cost $320, delivered from pro bike kit. I had considered buying shamals, but they were only 100g lighter with the same 16/21 spoke count, but aluminum spokes, and carbon fiber hub shells at more than twice the price. Shamals can be had for half the price that someone quoted - $745 from pro bike kit.
Exactly. The actual prices are very, very competitive right now, and for the carbon stuff as well.
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Old 03-31-20, 04:52 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Regardless of whether you're pro- or anti-Campy, using triathletes as an example of "people who know what they're doing" makes me laugh, given they're known for pissing (and ****ting) in their shorts to save time during a race.
I agree that having to go can motivate you to drope the hamer.
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Old 03-31-20, 04:57 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I agree that having to go can motivate you to drope the hamer.
I thought the euphemism was "pinching the loaf"?
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Old 03-31-20, 05:27 PM
  #122  
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Hi! What’s this thread about?
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28 View Post
Addiction is all about class.
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Old 03-31-20, 05:40 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
Hi! What’s this thread about?
It's about the greatness of Campy wheels if you shun disc brakes, don't value modern rim dimensions, aren't interested in tubeless compatibility, like hideous spoke patterns, accept the gray market as true arbiters of value and are a lone wolf - AHHOOOOOOO!!! - road cyclist.
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Old 03-31-20, 05:57 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by kansukee View Post
I can turn that around and ask you for pics to back up anything you say. See how easy that is? I do 10-12k miles a year and I have seen many triathletes running Campy and I know a few of them. But then the ones that do tend to be techy types for some reason (same as me) and we appreciate quality, great engineering and high resale value.
I posted numbers. You posted nothing, so there's nothing to "turn around". Cute, though.
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