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The Masi's dropout hanger is askew

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The Masi's dropout hanger is askew

Old 09-18-19, 12:39 PM
  #1  
tiger1964 
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The Masi's dropout hanger is askew

Overall, been enjoying the Masi Gran Corsa in recent weeks, since moving most of the parts over from the Palo Alto. But today I went further afield than my local rail-trail for the first time. Nice ride, but I have had some nagging dissatisfaction with shifting, and "trim noise" from the RD. I was mentally blaming the freewheel that came with wider-hubbed (126mm) wheels.


So, I was cleaning the bike on a stand on the patio, and took a closer look. The RD's cage is clearly out of plane by a few degrees, bottom pulley closer to the centerline of the bike than the upper pulley. Uh - oh...


As part of a process of elimination, I figured maybe it's the old Nuovo Record (Pat74) RD, had it's day. So I swapped in one that I had been given with zero miles on it (Pat71). No change. What's left? The hanger. I figure the hanger only needs to be out a millimeter or two for the "cumulative error", by the time you measure at the derailleur cage, to be noticeable.


So, I've been searching the forums for dropout topics. Most seem to be about traumatic damage, or misalignment of the dropouts where the wheels attach, especially after cold-setting the entire frame. Neither apply. I've read about "cold-setting" the hanger, as a first step before applying (!?!?!) heat. Not much about the actual technique. Input?


Right now, I am inclined to set the wheel-attachment portion (uh, is there a better term?) of the dropout in a vise to prevent (?) damaging that part, and then applying oomph to the hanger portion using my trusty 15" Crescent wrench (which, before I got better tools, was my way of removing fixed cups). Wrong? I suspect the hard part is knowing when "enough is enough" - small bites and repeatedly measuring by re-installing the wheel and RD. The good news is that, to my eye, I only need to adjust in the "roll axis" and not the "yaw axis" at the same time.


The frame arrived in lovely condition, I might conclude this is shipping damage on a scale so small it would have difficult to detect prior to assembly.
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Old 09-18-19, 12:43 PM
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it's not unusual to have to bend those dropouts back occasionally. you need to find someone with a dropout hanger alignment tool. Park sells a serviceable one
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Old 09-18-19, 12:44 PM
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As I know someone will want to see a picture, here's one but I don't know if it adds anything useful (story about the photo being 90 degrees out):
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Old 09-18-19, 12:48 PM
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You might be able to get it right by eye, but itís a lot easier with the right tool. Something like this: https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/.../rp-prod122319

if thereís a co-op nearby, they might have one you can use.

If you use a crescent wrench, I would do it with the wheel in the frame to hold the dropout in position.
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Old 09-18-19, 12:49 PM
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Thatís a pretty common and easily fixed condition. You can buy a tool to align, or make your own like I did using a piece of square steel pipe from the hardware store, a scrap axle and some spacers.
To use, remove the RD, thread the short end of axle in the hanger, and snug things up so the pipe just turns freely. Then move it around the wheel and measure to the rim. Use the tool as a lever to gently bend the hanger as necessary until the hanger and rim are in parallel planes.

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Old 09-18-19, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
it's not unusual to have to bend those dropouts back occasionally. you need to find someone with a dropout hanger alignment tool. Park sells a serviceable one
Originally Posted by AeroGut View Post
You might be able to get it right by eye, but itís a lot easier with the right tool. Something like this: https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/.../rp-prod122319
Thanks, I've bookmarked both. I trust Park tools, but the other one is about half the price. And this is a single-use situation (yeah, I say that, and...)
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Old 09-18-19, 01:04 PM
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Bummer, I'm sorry to see this. It's possible the frame was unknowingly shipped that way. Can you take it to a shop so the proper alignment tool can be used, I'd be happy to reimburse you for the cost.
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Old 09-18-19, 01:22 PM
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50 bucks EBay , my LBS quoted 75 and I could have it back in 2 weeks .



IMG_0413 by mark westi, on Flickr
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Old 09-18-19, 02:22 PM
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Yeah, either use the tool or have a shop do it, especially because it looks like your seller will reimburse the cost. I did this last year on my Motobecane with a wrench and a level, and while I got it aligned, I nicked the thread and had to tap it to clean up the error. Not the worst consequence, but a dumb error that could have been worse, and, more importantly, avoided.
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Old 09-18-19, 02:43 PM
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As usual, good feedback here!

Originally Posted by brian3069 View Post
Bummer, I'm sorry to see this. It's possible the frame was unknowingly shipped that way. Can you take it to a shop so the proper alignment tool can be used, I'd be happy to reimburse you for the cost.
Generous of you Brian -- especially as it's not 100% certain how it happened. What do you say to splitting it (uh, the cost, not the dropout )?

Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
50 bucks EBay , my LBS quoted 75 and I could have it back in 2 weeks.
Nice photo showing how the tool works.

Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
I did this last year on my Motobecane with a wrench and a level, and while I got it aligned, I nicked the thread and had to tap it to clean up the error.
Thanks for the warning; I was ready to break out Wrenchzilla. Still not sure I could not pull it off. I left a message with the LBS, let's see what they say about having the tool & time I'd be without the bike. Shoot, I've been riding it this way for, eh, 150 miles, thinking I had goofy freewheel.
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Old 09-18-19, 03:00 PM
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Aligning the dropouts and derailleur hanger is always my first step in setting up a bike. I have the tools, which makes it easy, but it's pretty easy to improvise a hanger tool from a spare axle as shown above. The basic idea of doing this is that you rotate the tool around, and use the distance to the rear rim as a reference. If there is more space between the tool and the rim at the top then the bottom, push the arm in when it's at the top to even the distance. Same thing if there is more difference in the front vs rear when the arm is horizontal.

FYI you can get even lazier and simply use a wheel with the tire removed. Just compare the distance at various points around the rim. Even this will work 100x better than eyeballing it with a crescent wrench. IMO.

Pretty hilarious that shops are charging 75 bux nowadays. Shops I worked in did it automatically as part of yer basic $35 tuneup, or whatever it cost BITD. Took 43 seconds.
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Old 09-18-19, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tiger1964 View Post

Generous of you Brian -- especially as it's not 100% certain how it happened. What do you say to splitting it (uh, the cost, not the dropout )?
Sounds fair, PM when you know the cost. Include your PP info.
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Old 09-18-19, 05:11 PM
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If you DIY make sure your wheel is square to the frame...
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Old 09-18-19, 05:59 PM
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I'd call around to any nearby frame builders and see what they charge. While $75 for labor is not an unfair price compared to electricians and plumbers, it is a lot higher than I would charge if it is only the hanger out of adjustment. And your local frame builder is probably a lot more experienced using all frame alignment tools. While your frame is there he can probably do other checks like see if the dropouts are equal distant to the center of the frame or other alignment issues. Most customers assume their frames are in good alignment when a big percentage of them are not.

It is possible the LBS price includes a more complete alignment check and they are farming the job out to a frame builder anyway. That might be the reason for the 2 week wait. There is no point to having the hanger parallel to the wheel if the dropouts are not square to the plane of the frame (requiring H tools). And if the alignment of the main triangle is off then that compromises the alignment of the dropouts. This is why a DIY job may not get everything right.

FYI dropout alignment tools are called "H tools" because that is how they were identified in old Campy catalogs. Their tools started with the letter A and just by chance their dropout alignment cups were labeled letter H because that is where they were in their identifying sequence.
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Old 09-18-19, 06:11 PM
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Old 09-18-19, 06:17 PM
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Old 09-18-19, 06:52 PM
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RJ the bike hack shows you how to make a homemade tool.

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Old 09-18-19, 07:08 PM
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FWIW! We get a lot of bent RD hangers at our shop. I usually charge only $10 to align them. It's quick with the Park tool and experience. The Park tool is worth it. I'm convinced that people don't pay attention when they lay the bike down, or when they hang it on a rack or put it in the car. RDs get banged all the time so the hangers get bent. I align them so they show less than 1/4" out at the rim, both directions. On my own bikes I align the hangers closer than that, after aligning the dropouts. It makes a difference in how the RD shifts, especially with indexed systems.

$75 to align the RD hanger? Either robbery or they are doing a LOT more than you've asked for. Ask many more questions!
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Old 09-18-19, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Aligning the dropouts and derailleur hanger is always my first step in setting up a bike. I have the tools, which makes it easy, but it's pretty easy to improvise a hanger tool from a spare axle as shown above. The basic idea of doing this is that you rotate the tool around, and use the distance to the rear rim as a reference. If there is more space between the tool and the rim at the top then the bottom, push the arm in when it's at the top to even the distance. Same thing if there is more difference in the front vs rear when the arm is horizontal.

FYI you can get even lazier and simply use a wheel with the tire removed. Just compare the distance at various points around the rim. Even this will work 100x better than eyeballing it with a crescent wrench. IMO.

Pretty hilarious that shops are charging 75 bux nowadays. Shops I worked in did it automatically as part of yer basic $35 tuneup, or whatever it cost BITD. Took 43 seconds.
Two prerequisites to using the derailleur hanger alignment tool.

True teh wheel.

Dish the wheel.

(maybe three) As has been said, install the wheel square, so the rim is in the plane or parallel to the plane of the main triangle.

After you're done it might be good to (if you have the tool) align the rear dropouts. Might have to do the derailleur hanger again, or at least check it.
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Old 09-18-19, 09:39 PM
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If you want precise alignment, get a precise tool:
https://www.efficientvelo.com/tools/...alignment-tool
I know Brett, the inventor. Genuinely nice person and brilliant bike mechanic/tool maker.
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Old 09-19-19, 05:46 AM
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You CAN eyeball it but it's hard to be accurate. As someone said above, be sure to have a wheel clamped in the frame, and check fork end alignment afterwards.

Love those EVT tools Jeff ! I have the dishing guage and it is awesome.

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Old 09-19-19, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
FWIW! We get a lot of bent RD hangers at our shop. I usually charge only $10 to align them.
If the difference is $65, it's probably worth driving up from the MD suburbs of DC!

Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
If you want precise alignment, get a precise tool:
Wow, my checkbook balance would be precisely $500 lower. It looks beautifully made...
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Old 09-19-19, 06:24 AM
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Hey, Not sure where you are in Maryland but I am a P/T er at Bike Dr in Annapolis and I believe we charge $15 to align the hanger. Usually can do it while you wait. Just saying.

Bill
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Old 09-19-19, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fishboy316 View Post
Hey, Not sure where you are in Maryland but I am a P/T er at Bike Dr in Annapolis and I believe we charge $15 to align the hanger. Usually can do it while you wait. Just saying.

Bill
Thanks, let's call that Plan B if the LBS cannot help or is too much $$$. I'm just south of Goddard Space Flight Center, so 1.5-to-2 gallons of gas away. While in Annapolis, I can see if I need anything from Velo Orange too, like those dropout screws....
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Old 09-19-19, 09:19 AM
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$75 is the retail for the park tool, isn't it?

The Cyclus looks okay https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...ent-tool-25599

you can find the Shimano version of the EVT tool on ebay occasionally. Often missing parts though.
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