captnfantastic

I see and read about studies where aero wheels can shave off 30 seconds in a 40k time trial. In reality, how much does this matter to an everyday racer (NOT TT racer)? If I am taking hard 30-60 second pulls every 5-10 min or so in a race, how much energy would actually be saved by rolling on zipp 808s as opposed to some training open pro 32 spoke 1800g non aero wheels. It seems to me that realistically the advantage would be so tiny that unless you were a breakaway specialist the aero wheels don't really do much for you... and we've all read that unless you are over 3% grade wheel weight is not very important. Secondly, wheel weight and depth can be important because of rotational mass, but how much better is a ridley noah or cervelo (very aero) over a boxy giant tcr or any other non aero bike. I cant imagine I get into situations outside of a TT where the advantage would be noticeable. thoughts?

carpediemracing 

If you look at my last lap move-up moves, a lot of times I can do them because I get some speed off the wheels.

I have a non-aero aero bike (i.e. aero styled, but, when looking at the 1998 Festina affair stuff, I realize I got myself a 1998 aero road bike lol), and frankly, I couldn't tell the difference between it and my regular Tsunami. I couldn't ride it back to back but so far, this year, there's been no noticeable speed difference, even when I skipped bottles and such (Camelbak experiment).

But wheels... I think they make a huge difference in the right conditions. I try and time my move-up surges to coincide with friendly wind, shelter, etc, and rely on the wheels to help allow me to punch through the last few mph. Since the move up moves are at higher speeds (typically 35-40 mph) the aero wheels, I think, help me. Move up moves are done while relatively upright (power > form, esp in the pack).

I think aero stuff would help if you're a breakaway type rider, but rider position is more important than, say, frame or bottles etc. The Cane Creek Bars are really good for me for example, much more so than aero tubing or no bottles.

Grumpy McTrumpy

I haven't yet been able to quantify it, but I have found the following to be the case for me:

Situation:

Me = (small, lightweight rider)

Race = hills not long enough to punish the big guys

Descent = not technical, again favors the heavy

Wind = crosswind, or headwind descent = bad for little guys

if I get gapped on the downhills by the fatties, it can be horrible for me trying to catch them. I have noticed my 404s make it a bit easier compared to my aluminum box rims.

waterrockets 

I did a bridge two weeks ago that took 3:30 at 435W. When I got there, I could only stay with them for 5 minutes because I just couldn't recover. I ended up dropping out, literally going cross-eyed. I figure that if I wasn't a cheap-skate and bought some aero race wheels, I could have closed that gap a few seconds faster, and that may have made the difference with recovery. It sure wouldn't have hurt.

Even for a sprinter, if you're down to an inch between 1st and 2nd at the line, aero wheels at 40mph are going to help, even if it's just a 10" effort.

carpediemracing 

On a related thought, I subscribed to the aero wheel thing a long time ago, when others mainly ignored it. So I'd have Zipp 440s or Specialized TriSpokes while racers around me were running 32H box wheels. I used to have an aero advantage compared to my competition (I guess I still do since I'm so short on the bike).

Now I line up and guys not only have the same wheels as me (Stinger 6, which I think are one of the faster wheels around), they have faster wheels, front and back (Stinger 9s for example).

I think aero wheels are kind of default now. Running box section or non-aero wheels will put you at a disadvantage.

Having said that, once I go above 45-50 mph, I prefer the lowest profile front wheel, to keep the bike more stable, esp when close to other vehicles/riders.

Grumpy McTrumpy

or the difference between 3:30@435w vs 3:30@415w

brianappleby

How do you expect to win a race?

The way I see it, you have a few options:

Solo Break: Aero wheels are an advantage in a TT, you've already confirmed that.

Small Group: You're essentially taking turns TT'ing, and anything you conserve in the break is going to help you drop or outsprint your opponents later.

Large Group: If you're sitting in for the sprint, you need to be able to make your bike go 40+mph for a few seconds. When sprints are won or lose by tire widths, the difference between 40 and 40.1 is a big deal.

Climbing: If you're going to win by climbing, you'll need to be fresh at the base of the hill, and hold onto your lead if the race doesn't finish at the top.

The only time aero wheels aren't the obvious choice are in a hillclimb TT, or in a flat race with a hilltop finish. Even then, I still ride my aero wheels because my 404 tubulars are lighter than any aluminum clincher I own, and I can't afford to buy a superlight shallow section tubular as well.

Hida Yanra

all of them so far - but this one for sure.

The aero advantage is never "turned off"
even in a pack, you are more efficent. You may not notice it as much, in a pack, but it is just the same as if you are off the front. When I got to the front for hard pulls, I'm not trying to pull at 26.4mph, I'm going to go for my highest reasonable level of effort. the level of effort stays the same, I'll just go incrementally faster.

perhaps another question that seems to be an underlying cause of a lot of these sorts of questions is:
"Are you trying to talk yourself into aero wheels, or out of aero wheels?"

cause that's what I see 90% of these discussions being. Nothing wrong with that - just what I've seen in a few years on the board.
I have aero wheels, never thought I would... but yeah - I have some, they are lovely.

Most days, though, given the choice, I'd choose a super stiff pair that corners fantastically & handles rough pavement perfectly over a pair that gains me a couple of watts.

Nate552

Zipp ran some computer model back in 2008 when they tried to convince Sastre to ride 303's instead of 202's. They said on the Alpe d'huez stage he would arrive at the base of the climb with 250 more calories in reserve. No idea how accurate that statement is or how they figured it out.

captnfantastic

I am talking myself out of aero wheels. I race 90% flat crits about an hour long. I have had some recent success in well timed solo or two person breaks in the last 5 minutes of a race BUT for the most part its sprint finishes. I have a hard time believing wheels will make any difference in the last 10 seconds of a bunch sprint. I believe it comes down to horsepower. If I lose one race by one inch to a guy who has deeper wheels, although he gets more cash for winning, I will be happy I saved $1500 on wheels and took second. If he beats me 10 times by one inch, I'm buying new wheels. But that will never happen.

Racer Ex 

You have a hard time believing in physics?

If you buy a $150 beater and finish 8th, you'll probably squeal like a little girl.

gsteinb

It is an interesting race format concept. Let's start handicapping finishing times based on equipment.

Homebrew01

You don't need to spend that much. Or just get a front wheel since that's more important than the rear. My bike budget is tiny, so I'm just running Am Classic Cr42. They're nothing fancy, a couple hundred used, but are better than my old box section and fall about in the middle of the aero chart.

waterrockets 

Mine's a purely economic decision as well, but I don't discount the difference the wheels make, and you shouldn't either. It's real. I have just consciously made the decision that a couple wins/year aren't worth another $600-$800 to me at this point. I'll still get a couple wins/year during those times when I've got more real estate off the front. I've got some other hobbies to feed... and the house is almost paid off.

Creakyknees

are you still using those? thought you had dumped them....

Creakyknees

This is what I always come back to when considering a bling purchse... "is the price of this item worth whatever glory I may get because of it?"

Usually the answer is no. And I disagree with the assumption that stock / daily rider wheels "prevent" wins or results. Sure, aero stuff helps... but plenty of people reading this are cat 3/4/5 and waste far more energy in races with stupid moves than the miniscule watts lost because of wheels.

I see way too many strong cat 3's with bling gear who don't know how to follow wheels, move up while in the draft, or even know which side the crosswind is coming from... fast wheels won't overcome bad racing.

gsteinb

if you waste energy on a stupid move you waste less with aero wheels. I try to not make stupid moves and have aero stuff. everyone should race what they want and/or can afford but physics is physics.

the glory of winning a race is never worth even close to what it costs to get no matter how inexpensive a bike you race on so it's a red herring.

Homebrew01

Same here. None of my wins, places, or losses would have been influenced by more aero wheels since the margin was significant each time. Maybe next race I'll lose by 2 inches, but I have the same financial thoughts as WR.

brianappleby

gstein, I couldn't agree more. Wheels are no substitute for making the right choices. And of course race what you want, and I'll respect you for it. But when people go on the internet and refute real science just to justify their own decisions....
That's great, but that's all you're doing. It isn't nice to ask questions and then ignore the answers.

Homebrew, have you ever gotten dropped in a situation where you were BARELY hanging on? Then as soon as you got dropped you saw the group just ahead of you, slightly out of reach, while you struggled in vain to reattach?

That's when Aero wheels would have helped. They're for that tiny, miniscule difference, that sometimes makes the difference between getting dropped or not. Or winning or not. Or dropping someone else or not. Stuff that sometimes matters in bike racing.

wphamilton

For what it's worth, when I did some coast-down tests on a rear wheel cover I found a 1%-2% reduction in drag. Now that's definitely not on a race bike or high end wheels, let alone racing conditions, but at least it's quantified and should be in the ballpark.

TheKillerPenguin

Word.

To the guys complaining about cost- I've taken to wearing a boddice (girdle?), as the hourglass shape it gives my waist is conducive to less turbulent airflow and saves roughly a minute/40k. Also, it confuses everyone around me.

Ebay has them for pretty cheap.

Creakyknees

If aero is really so valuable, why doesn't anyone wear TT helmets in mass start races? They are legal and quite cost-effective.

gsteinb

ok

TheKillerPenguin

Ever stick your head in a preheated oven?

brianappleby

This is speculation, but from looking at the situation, I'd wager that an aero helmet will only help if you're in a TT position.

And you can't hear anything, and they make your ears hurt, and they're heavy, and you could poke someone's eye out if you turned your head in a pack...