HPL

Columbus steerer, Campy dropouts, "2825" stamped onto steerer tube.

gomango

This looks like the fork on KAS's Richard Sachs.

unworthy1

Ditto, plus those tangs with suits of cards...very much "Richard Sachs" and before his more stylized logo was adopted (?)

3speedslow

Ditto, yes.

Ex Pres 

And no one asked to see the rest of the frame?

Cl904

Richard Sachs says it’s one of his.

HPL

Frame is not available, not in same State. I remember the old group was Campy Gran Sport/Nuovo Gran Sport. The whole bike was repainted at least once. Only chrome: 1/2 socks on chain stays; rear dropouts are Simplex w/eyelets (might be long), plain seat stay caps, "58" stamped on lower head tube lug, "75" stamped on seat tube lug, BB shell 68mm, BB 1.37x24, 3 Campy clamp-on TT cable guides, braze-ons: BB shell and chain stay cable guides, DT shifter and bidon bosses, no serial number.

I should be with the frame next month and will provide photos at that time.

unworthy1

Odd that a fork with Campy ends would mate with a frame that has Simplex DOs plus the other details with assorted guides but clamp-on TT clips makes me think it's a Richard Sachs fork planted on some (entirely) Other Brand frame...but maybe RS was quirkier that I imagine!

HPL

[QUOTE=unworthy1;20997166]Odd that a fork with Campy ends would mate with a frame that has Simplex DOs plus the other details with assorted guides but clamp-on TT clips makes me think it's a Richard Sachs fork planted on some (entirely) Other Brand frame...but maybe RS was quirkier that I imagine!

It is possible since frame was repainted the same color as the fork without any decals. I originally bought as an oddity and a parts donor, but would like to refinish if a worthy candidate; or at least find the fork a nice frame to pair it with.
The seller thought it was of German manufacture (perhaps remembered "Sachs"), had owned it for awhile, and never mentioned any change out of the fork. I've not made any notes for group date codes, but I think most of the stuff was late 70's to mid 80's. Curious as to the age of the fork since I hadn't seen an example yet.

unworthy1

If somebody @CI904 (?) has contacted Richard Sachs and gotten verification, maybe he'd also determine approx. age with that 2825 serial number. But I believe it's very young, based on the "RS" that I think predates this early "Touring" example
h**ps://bikeville.com/2011/08/16/customers-bike-1979-richard-sachs-touring-bike/
There's this link to some more sharing between C&V members who have RS frames, but many of the pix were erased (no)thanks to Photobucket
h**ps://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1097325-early-richard-sachs-2.html
and sorry for the edits to the links but BF doesn't allow hot-linking I guess, even to the BF site
Also seems he didn't always panto the forkcrowns, there are several Touring examples with blank top crowns.

HPL

I managed to find some photos of the frame, but they are not the best; just happened to be in the main photos.

unworthy1

without a doubt that's no Richard Sachs (unless he was deliberately trying to evade detection or be "weird"). Definitely Simplex DOs (as you said) and I think BCM headlugs...my guess it French or possibly Swiss

cudak888 

I don't even think the fork and frame belong to each other. The fork crown lugwork is superior to that of the frame.

Never seen any Richard Sachs with an "RS" typeface that deep or crude before, but that's an uneducated observation.

-Kurt

HPL

I have never seen a Sachs' bike, and going by photos hasn't helped much due to the vast majority being of his more recent work and those pictures that were of earlier designs were poor in showing any details. Seeing only a couple of poor photographic examples of that same style fork crown has not allowed me to do an accurate comparison. The tangs were a match to other examples. I will say that all of the brazing is very clean and the lug points are VERY sharp (even with 2 coats of paint). The "RS" in the crown is very well defined, and yes, deep considering the paint. I assume I'll see Columbus stamps on the tubes once stripped. The repaint was of decent quality so someone had been trying to take care of this frame set. When I get the frame in hand I'm sure more will come to light. I'd message Mr. Sachs and ask if he ever used Simplex dropouts, but I think I'd like to see the work on the frame first before wasting his time; I'd also ask when he started and stopped using the "RS" crown design. I think "Worthy" is correct in that the frame is of 70's European stock, and since neither French or Italian BB threading, it dwindles down the options a fair amount. Most of the components were 70's: Campy Gran/Nuovo Gran Sport, with a full Sugino crankset, and SR post and stem; early Super Champion rims. The newer (80's) stuff was Sun Tour clamp-on DT shift levers and skewers, Shimano hubs, and Nitto bars. Really no poor components; I figure that it was shop outfitted as a complete ride when new with most of the existing components typical of a European entry level bike. Of course when and why the fork was changed is a mystery for the ages. I have notes that have me buying the bike primarily due to the fork and the parts, so the frame itself did not make an impression at the time. I paid $140 which I thought a bit high for my normal mystery buys. He was asking $325 originally, but since he really didn't know what he had and neither did I; I offered less than 50% (150) to get an idea, he wanted 200, so dropped the Brooks Cambria saddle and left at 140 which might be the value of the fork alone now that it has been ID'd. Although the mystery is not solved, I don't feel bad about the buy, and as usual I learned a lot with the help and knowledge of the FORUM community. THANKS!

unworthy1

So is it BSC (British) 1.37x24 or Swiss 35x1 with a LH fixed cup ALA a British/ISO cup? I have to say the stay ends on the Simplex dropouts look way more like "Swiss" than anything British, check out some Mondias while not suggesting this is one (and cannot recall any well-know Brits that typically used Simplex DOs but always have new things to learn!). Sometimes you find a BSC BB jammed into a Swiss BB shell, it CAN fit with some thread deforming! Anyhow I'll be watching for more updates!

One more curveball I'd throw just for grins. consider: "Austrian".

HPL

My notes say it's a Sugino 1.37x24 BB. I stripped everything from the frame except the headset, DT shifter clamp, and BB. I will be going to get some of my remote parts next month, so I'll see how the BB fit is at that time. Probably why most of my stuff has Italian BB, no questions with a 70mm shell.

cudak888 

I don't see Sachs ever using Simplex drops in the back (non-matching to the fork, no less). Nor do I see him using Bocama Professional lugs so sloppily finished (look at the bottom edge, where the manufacturing process usually resulted in a rough radius). That's not sharp lugwork, that's production lugwork. It doesn't match the quality of the filing seen on the fork crown.

I also don't see Sachs using that el-cheapo and oh-so-French stamped steel chainstay derailer cable stop.

If it wasn't for that English BB and those water bottle brazeons (which might have been added later), I'd say this frameset is a dead ringer for a 1978 or earlier PX10.

Given the BB and the braze-ons, perhaps it is a PX10 that's been tinkered with. What's the seattube diameter?

-Kurt

ddeand 

I know little about the sorts of crown lugs that were available for old forks, but I was a little surprised to see the one posted by the OP. Was the card suit motif a popular item for forks, or was there a particular manufacturer who made these things? I ask because a couple months ago, I posted a fork that I had purchased that had similar cutouts. We determined it was a Charles Roberts, and it is a very nice fork. It has the some of the same design elements as the one the OP pictured. Interesting.

unworthy1

Careful, There ARE some similarities BUT the Roberts fork is only similar to that from Richard Sachs, and the tangs with "suits of cards" is something Sachs resurrected because it was so iconic yet he couldn't get a reliable supply in modern times so he had his own made. There were a LOT of fork tangs (not to mention lug piercings) that used various card suits and combinations of them so when you wade in those waters...you come across some red herrings..,

cudak888 

Agreed. It's not who had card suit tangs in their forks back in the day, but who didn't.

-Kurt

Giuanin

Mercier ?

cudak888 

I see I'm not the only one who sees this bike and can't accept that it supposedly has an English BB.

-Kurt

e-RICHIE

I can't address all the inaccurate comments directed at my work, but I was emailed about the fork alone. It is one of mine. Yes, I did have many versions of the pantographing until I could afford having my own font made into a traceable pattern. This fork was probably from an order I filled in 1978. Maybe 1979.

I never saw this thread until today. That is not one of my frames.

unworthy1

So there we go: straight from the "ATMO's mouth"! I hope I wasn't one of the " inaccurate comments directed at my work" but...probably was...

cudak888 

Tell me about it. You're not the only one to feels like he's the indirect recipient of passive aggressiveness over a fork that was noted to have far better filing than the frame its has been fitted to.

So much for "Imperfection is Perfection." I gather imperfection in guesswork is taboo when one is trying to identify an unknown frameset...and gets "caught" by the fork's creator (who has a decided advantage in the matter).

-Kurt