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More anti-cyclist rhetoric on the radio

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Old 03-21-06, 02:47 PM
  #26  
merlin70
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Originally Posted by eubi
Thanks for the article Helmet Head. Too bad.

I felt that San Diego was relatively bike friendly when I lived there in the 50's through the 70's. City Bike Coordinator Michael Jackson helped me with a couple of my bicycling projects.

Time to turn back the clock, I guess...

Remember, it was a lot smaller then. It was probably metro population of only 1 million or so when we moved there in 1970. When we left in 2004 it was just over 3 million, or triple in just over 30 years. Pretty incredible growth all considered.

It is still bike friendly but I did notice it got worse during the time I rode there, 1990 to 2004. Traffic increased greatly, especially starting in the mid-1980's or so.

And Roberts is an idiot. I couldn't take listening to him for more than 5 minutes when I lived there.
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Old 03-21-06, 02:58 PM
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I've been CCed on many emails sent by cyclists all over San Diego to Roberts and the radio station over the past 24 hours. I listened to a couple of his mp3s from yesterday (hours 3 and 4) and listened live this morning, trying to understand his perspective as best I could. Much of what he says is targetted against stupid cyclist behavior. I don't agree with the tone, rhetoric and language he uses, but the underlying message is often correct. But when he made one statement in particular, I thought I found a way to respond that might be effective. I'm not optimistic, since I realize all this is mostly about ratings, but I thought it would be worth a try. Here is the letter I sent, with some personal information excised.


Rick,

First, I would like to say I appreciate what you have done to bring
attention to important issues from "outing" molesters that live in our
midst, to the border problems.

But I am writing today because I heard you say on the air (3/21,
around 9:40 am???), "I hate bicyclists that ride in the road". I also
listened to the podcasts of the 3rd and 4th hours of your program from
yesterday.

I am an X year old married father and ? engineer who regularly
bike commutes from home in [one SD area] to work in [another SD area], a
member of the San Diego Bicycle Club (sdbc.org), and a member of
the San Diego County Bicycle Coalition (sdcbc.org), the body that
advocates for all cyclists, particularly for our rights to ride in the
road, in San Diego County. I sometimes ride in groups, particularly
on the weekends, for all the reasons that you recognized yesterday.
I'm one those bees that you see buzzing around in "pods" from time to
time, sometimes taking up a whole lane. Along with all the other
drivers of slow moving vehicles in the road that may cause you to slow
down, including vintage cars, moving vans, busses, any vehicle slowing
down to park, horse and buggies, parking meter attendant carts,
bulldozers and cement trucks, sorry about that! But please don't hate
us for slowing you down a bit now and then. Please try to understand
why it is often necessary and legitimate.

I agree with you that outlaw cyclists are a big problem. I understand
that the vast majority of car-bike crashes could be prevented by
cyclist behavior. But, perhaps surprisingly, the behavior that needs
changing to prevent crashes does not include cyclists riding in the
the road. It does include cyclists running stop signs and red lights.
It does include cyclists riding on the wrong side of the street, or
on sidewalks, where they are unexpected. It does include cyclists
swerving out in front of faster traffic without yielding. It does
include cyclists riding in door zones, where, despite what the law
says, it is unreasonable to think everyone will remember to look, and
manage to see, a 15 mph cyclist approaching from behind before they
open their door right in front of them. It does include cyclists
passing slow or stopped traffic on the right in a bike lane, too
quickly, where they are unexpected by cross traffic. But, again, it
does not include cyclists simply riding legally in the road, where
they have the same rights and responsibilities as any other driver of
a vehicle. A cyclist simply riding in the road slowing you down is
not necessarily someone doing something wrong, illegal or
inappropriate.

Cyclist behavior that should be prevented or discouraged most
certainly does not include cyclists riding in the middle of a lane as
they approach any intersection where they are not turning right.
Riding too far right in such a situation is a major contributing
factor to so-called "right hooks", where right-turning motorists pass
and turn in front of, or into, a through cyclist riding only as far
right as it would make sense to do if he was turning right. This is
why bike lane stripes, as you may have noticed, change from solid to
dashed at intersection approaches. The change to dashing is to
encourage right-turning motorists to merge into the bike lane (as they
are required to do by law), and through cyclists to merge out of the
bike lane, so that their paths do not cross at the intersection.

Riding too far right at intersection approaches is also a major cause
of "left hook" collisions, where oncoming motorists who are turning
left into or across the cyclist's path do not see the cyclist because
he is riding where right-turning traffic is expected, not out in the
middle of the lane where they are looking for oncoming traffic. For
similar reasons, through cyclists staying in the bike lane as they
approach and cross at intersections is a major contributory cause to
"right crosses", where drivers in traffic coming from the right
(perhaps making a right on red) again, are less likely to pay
attention before entering the intersection.

The only reasonable interpretation of your "I hate bicyclists that
ride in the road" statement in the context that it was made, was that
you hate bicyclists who get in your way when you are driving a motor
vehicle. The problem I have with that statement is that you made no
concession for all of the countless legitimate situations for cyclists
to be in your way.

The obvious implication of such a statement is that bicyclists have,
or should have, some kind of obligation to get out of the way of motor
traffic. If there is no such obligation, then what would be the basis
for hating those who do not get out of your way?

Like all drivers of slow moving vehicles, cyclists do have a legal
obligation to keep "as far right as practicable" in certain very
specific situations: only between intersections, when same-direction
faster traffic is present (not vehicles that have the potential to go
faster, but vehicles that are actually moving faster), and only when
it is safe and reasonable to do so. The implications of the
exceptions of VC 21202 are not well known, much less understood, as is
made evident by statements such as yours. Here is the relevant
portion of the law, and a link to the whole thing, in case you're
interested (more comments below).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed
less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at
that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or
edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding
in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a
private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not
limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians,
animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it
unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the
provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a
"substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle
and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm

Please pay particular attention to the exceptions. They are in there
for good reason. Yet most cyclists, much less motorists, are not aware
of them.

More often than many drivers realize, the slow lane may be too narrow
to be safely shared side-by-side, the bike lane may be full of glass
and other debris, I may be preparing for a left turn, moving further
right may be unsafe due to poor sight lines (in any situation where as
a motorcyclist you would not ride, say, 3 feet from the curb, even at
15-20 mph, because of poor sight lines, it is not reasonable to expect
a bicyclist to do so), I may be approaching a minor intersection, even
just a driveway ("a place where a right turn is authorized"), or
riding further right may put me into the "door zone" of parallel
parked cars (such as along some sections of La Village Drive, which I
heard you mention yesterday) where it is unsafe to ride closer than 5
feet to the parked cars, all of which are not only situations where I
am allowed to "take the lane", but often are situations where "taking
the lane" is the most appropriate place for me, even if you're
impatiently driving a car behind me. So, please, try to be patient.
And, please, don't hate me for riding in the road.

Making statements on the air like, "I hate bicyclists that ride in
the road" reinforces the ignorant notions about cyclists rights to
ride in the road that are already far too prevalent.

I, for one, would appreciate it if you took the time to look into this
issue further, and report to your listeners accordingly, rather than
flame the passions of their ignorance. I know the executive director
of the San Diego County Bicycle Coalition, Kathy Keehan
(execdir@sdcbc.org), and Jim Baross, our local traffic cycling guru
(the instructor of instructors), have already offered their time and
other resources, should you be interested in obtaining more
information on the topic of cyclists riding in traffic on the road. I
hope you take them up on it, and pass on what you learn to your
listeners.

Regards,
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Old 03-21-06, 03:11 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by merlin70
Remember, it was a lot smaller then. It was probably metro population of only 1 million or so when we moved there in 1970. When we left in 2004 it was just over 3 million, or triple in just over 30 years. Pretty incredible growth all considered.

It is still bike friendly but I did notice it got worse during the time I rode there, 1990 to 2004. Traffic increased greatly, especially starting in the mid-1980's or so.

And Roberts is an idiot. I couldn't take listening to him for more than 5 minutes when I lived there.

I feel the same way about the area... I have conveyed that thought to others who tell me things haven't changed "that much." But subtle things all over point to some changes that really are not all that bike friendly... from the route changes and additional lights on Torrey Pine Road to increased speed limits such as Kearny Villa Road with 65MPH as a limit. I recall when KV reopened it was 45MPH. Also as the area has grown, we have seen many new home divisions with walls and a boulevard with bike lanes outside of the gated area. The high speeds that vehicles actually travel on these boulevards, coupled with the wall of the subdivision just makes for an uncomfortable "channel" for cyclists.

And if anyone suggests that motor traffic has become any calmer, perhaps they need to only ask why so many red light cameras have been erected around town.

Things have indeed changed... and mid to late '80s are when a lot of this happened.

As far as Roberts... just the huge number of half truths were enough to convince me that this guy is pure BS. But the problem is he does have a following... and that half baked following can be expected to react in some half baked way.
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Old 03-21-06, 03:32 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Roody
The FCC is into anti-democracy censorship. I don't think using censorship for a good cause is any better than using it for a bad cause. Even morons have a right to voice their opinion.

If you want something from the radio station, ask them for airtime to present an opposing viewpoint.
I'll be the one to agree with you here. Shock jocks are paid to push the limits of free speech, and so they invariably end up pissing some people off. That freedom is the same freedom which keeps us out on the road on our bikes and keeps legislators from simply passing laws banning bicycles on the road.

So what to do about it? I agree with Roody that getting the FCC involved is too much. Imagine if the FCC simply banned all things from the radio except for Fox news and oldies. I know I'd go crazy in an instant. So what to do about it? Call in! These jocks are looking for conflict, so give them conflict. Don't take the role of the angry cyclist though, spouting laws and rights and the dangers on the road. That's exactly what the jocks want. No, what you want to do is call in and hold your own with the jock. Piss him off (it's always a him, isn't it?). Show the listeners that this really is all for fun and we are just joshin' with each other.

The reason why they pick on us is because we are easy to pick on. We react angrily when something is said, and that is precisely what they are looking for. Their station will gladly say anything, write any appology, force the jock to say anything, if it gets their program more listeners. So make it a non-issue. They are just there to have fun; make it clear that we can spar back.

RJ: Those stupid a$$ cyclists, always in the way!

Cyclist: Yea, we just looooove the pleasure of holding up caggers!

RJ: F you guys, we should just run your a$$ down!

C: Oh, what? And mess up your pretty bumper? I doubt you could do it!

RJ: Oh, I'd do it, you just watch. I'll get my old pickup just for the occasion!

C: What, is it that crappy old thing made of rust I see driving by the station? Don't you have anything else? Why, *****, you drive like a sissy too. Easy to say these things from behind a mike isn't it? (does it really matter what they drive? Who even knows what the radio jock looks like anyway?)

RJ: Yea, you're full of ***** too! Hee Hee. Next caller!

It's radio, so probably cannot have all the cursing, but you get the idea. They're just joshin', and they make us the subject because out collective skin is pretty thin. Witness this thread if you need any proof.

Going behind their back isn't going to get you anywhere either. It is the jock who is on the air. Most people don't even know what company owns the station, and they can care less. Even if they make the jock read an apology on the air, there are a million ways of reading something, anything, and making a jab at the person (or group) they are apologizing to implicitly, in return.
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Old 03-21-06, 07:16 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Roody
If you want something from the radio station, ask them for airtime to present an opposing viewpoint.
I concur. In similar cases, radio stations have aired public service announcements on traffic safety.

Originally Posted by Roody
The FCC is into anti-democracy censorship. I don't think using censorship for a good cause is any better than using it for a bad cause. Even morons have a right to voice their opinion.
In similar cases in the past, the only way to get a decent on-air rebuttal was through pressure from the FCC.

I share your distaste of censorship, but Roberts' comments come dangerously close to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. If one or more cyclists are injured or killed because Roberts' listeners start crowding them off the road, then we have a serious problem. The price of freedom is responsibility, and media personalities are held to a higher standard than John Q. Public, who can pretty much say anything he wants anywhere he wants, with my blessing.
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Old 03-21-06, 09:53 PM
  #31  
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turn off the radio.
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Old 03-22-06, 05:10 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Brad M
turn off the radio.
Good advice! To all those tuning in and downloading the podcast just to knock themselves out, try picking at your own scabs; almost as much fun and just as productive.
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Old 03-22-06, 07:28 AM
  #33  
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The other thread on this has the shock jock listed as "Rick Rogers". A little confusion there, not not a biggie.

Helmet Head is correct, that does not sound like something Forester would say. I doubt John Forester spends any time listening to talk radio programs anyway.

It's easy to say that these guys "are just trying to be funny", but I'm not amused. These jerks come across as adult men who have not aged mentally beyond 7th grade.

In Boston, cyclists went through this with WRKO's afternoon personality, Howie Carr.
Carr actually encouraged motorists to run cyclists off the road. The Mass Bicycle coalition got an apology from WRKO management, (Not from Carr himself though) and some free air time for pro-bicycle PSA's. Carr is actually quite funny when he's uncovering dirt on local politicians.

Letters from station sponsors and lawyers usually do the job nicely. I'd advise against calling the shock jock programs. Remember, these guys don't do it all themselves, they have writers and producers backing them up. What I'm saying is that they'll be prepared for your call with a scripted response, and you won't get a word in edgewise.

Good posting, Helmet Head.
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Old 03-22-06, 08:51 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by trackhub
It's easy to say that these guys "are just trying to be funny", but I'm not amused. These jerks come across as adult men who have not aged mentally beyond 7th grade.

In Boston, cyclists went through this with WRKO's afternoon personality, Howie Carr.
Carr actually encouraged motorists to run cyclists off the road. The Mass Bicycle coalition got an apology from WRKO management, (Not from Carr himself though) and some free air time for pro-bicycle PSA's. Carr is actually quite funny when he's uncovering dirt on local politicians.

Letters from station sponsors and lawyers usually do the job nicely. I'd advise against calling the shock jock programs. Remember, these guys don't do it all themselves, they have writers and producers backing them up. What I'm saying is that they'll be prepared for your call with a scripted response, and you won't get a word in edgewise.

Good posting, Helmet Head.
Good post. I agree this is no humor but sick comments. "Cyclists making good hood ornaments" is not far from Carr's recommendations on running cyclists off the road and can easily be turned to action by anyone in their audience of intellectually challenged listeners. How would people react upon comments encouraging motorists to run over pedestrians off the cross-walk?

Ignoring is just losing.
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Old 03-22-06, 11:35 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Brad M
turn off the radio.
I never listen to talk radio, but I am concerned about some of the motorists who do. We don't need some bozo encouraging them to harrass us or to crowd us off the road.
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Old 03-22-06, 04:30 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by John E
I never listen to talk radio, but I am concerned about some of the motorists who do. We don't need some bozo encouraging them to harrass us or to crowd us off the road.
Be proactive. Encourage the motorists to do otherwise.
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Old 03-22-06, 05:08 PM
  #37  
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I don't complain when someone for whom I have no respect or appreciation makes hisself look foolish.
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Old 03-22-06, 05:33 PM
  #38  
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Here's a link tied to this topic:

https://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/p...hp?id=490#body
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Old 03-22-06, 06:38 PM
  #39  
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Good work Jedi Rider. That even lists the sponsors. Cyclists are also consumers. We spend our money on such things as cell phones, computers, pet supplies, home owners insurance, accounting services, (it is that time of year, after all) and yes, automobiles. Let those sponsors know that programming such as this is not the way to get our business.

Non-cycling related comment: It's a little disturbing to realize that these clowns, in every radio market in the country, command the audiences they have. I remember when "Disc Jockeys" were just guys who played music, made some jokes and wisecracks, and ran contests, with concert tickets being a frequent prize. What the heck happened?
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Old 03-22-06, 07:00 PM
  #40  
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In the slowtwitch thread (one of the last ones), there was a respnse posted from KFMB by one of the members stating that Rick Roberts proclaimed his rantings were satirical, but I tried really hard to find that comment through all the podcasts and didn't.

Even when he mentioned, "...I want to make you my hood ornament..." I could not find where he mentions it being satirical.

They'll give a microphone to anybody these days...
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Old 03-22-06, 07:47 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jedi_rider
In the slowtwitch thread (one of the last ones), there was a respnse posted from KFMB by one of the members stating that Rick Roberts proclaimed his rantings were satirical, but I tried really hard to find that comment through all the podcasts and didn't.

Even when he mentioned, "...I want to make you my hood ornament..." I could not find where he mentions it being satirical.

They'll give a microphone to anybody these days...
I wonder how he would feel if we satirically let all the air out of his car tires...
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Old 03-22-06, 07:58 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I've been CCed on many emails sent by cyclists all over San Diego to Roberts and the radio station over the past 24 hours. I listened to a couple of his mp3s from yesterday (hours 3 and 4) and listened live this morning, trying to understand his perspective as best I could. Much of what he says is targetted against stupid cyclist behavior. I don't agree with the tone, rhetoric and language he uses, but the underlying message is often correct. But when he made one statement in particular, I thought I found a way to respond that might be effective. I'm not optimistic, since I realize all this is mostly about ratings, but I thought it would be worth a try. Here is the letter I sent, with some personal information excised.
One of the few times I have agreed with you Helmet Head. Well said.
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Old 03-22-06, 08:05 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Roody
The FCC is into anti-democracy censorship. I don't think using censorship for a good cause is any better than using it for a bad cause. Even morons have a right to voice their opinion.

If you want something from the radio station, ask them for airtime to present an opposing viewpoint.
Roody, you surprise me, I can't believe I'm agreeing with you guys! I'm feeling faint...
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Old 03-22-06, 08:05 PM
  #44  
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Meanwhile this guy rants about "stupid cyclists," while missing the fact that only about 5% of all traffic are cyclists, meanwhile we have red light cameras all over town to record the FACT that motorists also running lights. Often!

Not to mention the 45,000 or so motorists that are killed each year...

Talk about pot calling the kettle black... sheesh.
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Old 03-22-06, 09:36 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by anchojoe
Roody, you surprise me, I can't believe I'm agreeing with you guys! I'm feeling faint...
I'm shocked. How could anybody NOT agree with me?
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Old 03-23-06, 12:33 AM
  #46  
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bottom line.... write letters to the station, write their sponsors ... basically put the squeeze on them until they apologize and set things right... it's been done before and can be done again, as far as I can see it's being done now
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Old 03-23-06, 04:53 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by anchojoe
One of the few times I have agreed with you Helmet Head. Well said.
+1 on the letter. A very thoughful response.
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Old 03-24-06, 03:23 PM
  #48  
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Having been a long time reader, but recent member of this forum, I found this issue worth responding to. I have followed this thread, having been a long time San Diego resident, now living north of San Francisco. Mr. Roberts has demanded a retraction from Gary Tingley, a board member for Cyclo-Vets, a SD racing club. He plans to sue if Gary does not retract his statement that Roberts advocated running bikes down. True, Roberts never said this, however, he did say he hopes cyclists don't end up as hood orniments. Sounds like the statement is implied, but not stated. My comment is I hope that Gary holds his ground and allows Roberts to pursue his "case". If nothing else it might bring some visiblity to this issue.
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Old 03-24-06, 03:26 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by alttransport
He plans to sue if ...
We don't know what Rick Roberts actually plans. We only know that he said he plans to sue Gary. For all we know, he just said that for effect.
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Old 03-24-06, 03:42 PM
  #50  
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Well if Roberts sticks to this claims, he will file on Monday. 48 hours takes the threat into Saturday.
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