The Special Mode (CyclingSavvy article by Mighk Wilson)
03-15-18, 10:50 AM
#26
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You needed to take a course to figure out that communicating with other people eases situations?
I knew how important communication with drivers was about a week after getting my driver's license. If you needed to be told that your survival chances increase, plus the world is a much better place, if we all communicate ... well, glad you learned.
Let me say this once more, to see if you can grasp it ...
Dude, I learned urban cycling in the most dangerous city in the nation, before there were bike lanes.
I survived. Pretty obviously I learned how to ride in dense, dangerous urban traffic safely.
Your pontificating might be helpful for a toddler ... but anyone who has come through years of commuting in Any city or even busy town knows all that stuff ... or they are dead.
Basic stuff. If a person can't figure this out on his or her own ... whether walking, biking in a car, on a horse ....
I still get the occasional shout from passing cars, because some people really do seem to think that bikes don't belong on the roadway. I love it when someone shouts "Get on the sidewalk!" when there is no sidewalk.
No, I left Orlando. But if you are serious, pay for the class and I will try to arrange some vacation time ... I have friends there I could visit and stay with if needed.
Otherwise .. I have read enough of what this guy says and I am not impressed. If you are, great. Tandempower has his trees, you have CyclingSavvy, I have truth, compassion, and tolerance. We all believe in something.
Except It-likes-to-bike. That person has his negativity, but I bet he doesn't believe in it ... he doesn't believe anything else people tell him.
That would be the person to take the course and report back. Hook him up with transport and tuition. That would make for some interesting posts.
I knew how important communication with drivers was about a week after getting my driver's license. If you needed to be told that your survival chances increase, plus the world is a much better place, if we all communicate ... well, glad you learned.
Let me say this once more, to see if you can grasp it ...
Dude, I learned urban cycling in the most dangerous city in the nation, before there were bike lanes.
I survived. Pretty obviously I learned how to ride in dense, dangerous urban traffic safely.
Your pontificating might be helpful for a toddler ... but anyone who has come through years of commuting in Any city or even busy town knows all that stuff ... or they are dead.
Basic stuff. If a person can't figure this out on his or her own ... whether walking, biking in a car, on a horse ....
I still get the occasional shout from passing cars, because some people really do seem to think that bikes don't belong on the roadway. I love it when someone shouts "Get on the sidewalk!" when there is no sidewalk.
No, I left Orlando. But if you are serious, pay for the class and I will try to arrange some vacation time ... I have friends there I could visit and stay with if needed.
Otherwise .. I have read enough of what this guy says and I am not impressed. If you are, great. Tandempower has his trees, you have CyclingSavvy, I have truth, compassion, and tolerance. We all believe in something.
Except It-likes-to-bike. That person has his negativity, but I bet he doesn't believe in it ... he doesn't believe anything else people tell him.
That would be the person to take the course and report back. Hook him up with transport and tuition. That would make for some interesting posts.
03-15-18, 10:51 AM
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Perhaps we're using different notions of how often constitutes "often" in "often responsible for causing their own deaths". Even if only 10% of cyclist deaths were caused by the cyclist, that would be about 60 per year in the US, or about one a week. That's what I mean by "often". What about you?
It's not exactly "honest".
If "only 10%" are the problem. it leads to the question of why you are ignoring the other 90%.
His response is an indication that he's aware of your rhetorical "ploy".
03-15-18, 10:52 AM
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most cyclists start out with the understanding that they are supposed to be "riding in the gutter". Many of them stay there or give up cycling.
There are techniques to riding in traffic that people have figured-out earlier.
Telling riders "they have to communicate" isn't really teaching them how to do that.
Some cyclists might benefit from a course (or reading/etc) rather than learning how to do all that by themselves.
There are techniques to riding in traffic that people have figured-out earlier.
Telling riders "they have to communicate" isn't really teaching them how to do that.
Some cyclists might benefit from a course (or reading/etc) rather than learning how to do all that by themselves.
03-15-18, 10:53 AM
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There are courses OTHER than the one-and-only-official-saved-my-life-hallelujah-course?
You mean there's HOPE for those of us who OFTEN kill themselves on bicycles?
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 03-16-18 at 06:38 AM.
03-15-18, 10:59 AM
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First, it's not "only 10%" (I said "even if [it's only 10%]", and, second, I'm not ignoring the other 90% (or whatever surely smaller-than-90% it is). As I originally said, "...and even where motorists were at fault some prudent defensive practices often would have saved the cyclists or pedestrians. " And in that case by "often" I believe it's "almost always". Yes, there are the crazy unpredictable situations with drivers driving up onto sidewalks or whatnot, but the vast majority of cyclist deaths where the motorist is at fault involve the well-known crash types (right hook, left cross, pullout, etc.) all of which have well-known practices for avoidance. Pedestrians who are hit when they have the right of way often could have avoided it by checking for red light runners, etc.
03-15-18, 11:03 AM
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I'm using your hypothetical of "even if it's only 10%". In that case, "often" is a problem.
"Often" is a wiggle word typically used to make things appear to be worse than they are.
Expect careful readers to be wary of it.
As I originally said, "...and even where motorists were at fault some prudent defensive practices often would have saved the cyclists or pedestrians. " And in that case by "often" I believe it's "almost always". Yes, there are the crazy unpredictable situations with drivers driving up onto sidewalks or whatnot, but the vast majority of cyclist deaths where the motorist is at fault involve the well-known crash types (right hook, left cross, pullout, etc.) all of which have well-known practices for avoidance. Pedestrians who are hit when they have the right of way often could have avoided it by checking for red light runners, etc.
In any case, I don't think that anybody in this forum disagrees with what you said here.
I'd be surprised if anybody (with any sense) would disagree that these skills are something that cyclists can be taught (either by other cyclists, reading, watching videos, or by taking a class).
People might not being clear enough, but I think the disagreement is the implication (possibly, erroneous) that it can only be learned from paying for a particular class.
Last edited by njkayaker; 03-15-18 at 11:15 AM.
03-15-18, 11:15 AM
#32
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yeah, you go with your "beliefs" an awful lot. And you don't seem to understand why the things you "believe" are not immediately accepted as fact.
In most of the accidents I have been in, most were my fault, many I could have avoided by riding smart despite the stupidity of some drivers, and all were educational.
So .... Now I don't have any problems with cars.
But ... I am not making up data and claiming it as fact, as you did and often do.
I am just suggesting that you rein in that tendency.
Also ... as I said, I don't care if this guy wants and can make money selling his view of how to ride. And I don't care if you worship him. But maybe understand that just because he was the one who opened your eyes ... a lot of people get their eyes opened in other ways, and a lot of people open their own eyes.
You are like the guy who wants to marry the first girl who consented to have sex with him ... she was drunk and thought you were someone else, and you are in love forever.
The guy is your hero, great. The fact that not a lot of other people agree with him, doesn't change what he is to you.
But maybe ... you could keep your love life to yourself?
j/k you are doing fine,.. i am just having fun with you.
In most of the accidents I have been in, most were my fault, many I could have avoided by riding smart despite the stupidity of some drivers, and all were educational.
So .... Now I don't have any problems with cars.
But ... I am not making up data and claiming it as fact, as you did and often do.
I am just suggesting that you rein in that tendency.
Also ... as I said, I don't care if this guy wants and can make money selling his view of how to ride. And I don't care if you worship him. But maybe understand that just because he was the one who opened your eyes ... a lot of people get their eyes opened in other ways, and a lot of people open their own eyes.
You are like the guy who wants to marry the first girl who consented to have sex with him ... she was drunk and thought you were someone else, and you are in love forever.
The guy is your hero, great. The fact that not a lot of other people agree with him, doesn't change what he is to you.
But maybe ... you could keep your love life to yourself?
j/k you are doing fine,.. i am just having fun with you.
03-15-18, 11:16 AM
#33
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Some percentage of the time cyclists are primarily at fault. I think it's sufficiently frequent to fairly refer to it as "often", but it doesn't matter. That's just semantics (which is why I didn't understand why mr bill took issue with it).
The other percentage of the time motorists are primarily at fault. In those cases I believe defensive techniques by the cyclist can usually prevent the crash.
Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 03-15-18 at 11:20 AM.
03-15-18, 11:23 AM
#34
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I'm not sure if anybody here really disagrees that training/experience/practice of good techniques reduces risk in a significant way.
You seem to be assuming that they don't.
Last edited by njkayaker; 03-15-18 at 09:08 PM.
03-15-18, 11:25 AM
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If your "point" stands is there a walkforums.net where you recommend a weekend long walkingsavvy course?
Since pedestrians kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people on bikes.
-mr. bill
Since pedestrians kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people on bikes.
-mr. bill
03-15-18, 11:26 AM
#36
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yeah, you go with your "beliefs" an awful lot. And you don't seem to understand why the things you "believe" are not immediately accepted as fact.
In most of the accidents I have been in, most were my fault, many I could have avoided by riding smart despite the stupidity of some drivers, and all were educational.
So .... Now I don't have any problems with cars.
But ... I am not making up data and claiming it as fact, as you did and often do.
I am just suggesting that you rein in that tendency.
Also ... as I said, I don't care if this guy wants and can make money selling his view of how to ride. And I don't care if you worship him. But maybe understand that just because he was the one who opened your eyes ... a lot of people get their eyes opened in other ways, and a lot of people open their own eyes.
You are like the guy who wants to marry the first girl who consented to have sex with him ... she was drunk and thought you were someone else, and you are in love forever.
The guy is your hero, great. The fact that not a lot of other people agree with him, doesn't change what he is to you.
But maybe ... you could keep your love life to yourself?
j/k you are doing fine,.. i am just having fun with you.
In most of the accidents I have been in, most were my fault, many I could have avoided by riding smart despite the stupidity of some drivers, and all were educational.
So .... Now I don't have any problems with cars.
But ... I am not making up data and claiming it as fact, as you did and often do.
I am just suggesting that you rein in that tendency.
Also ... as I said, I don't care if this guy wants and can make money selling his view of how to ride. And I don't care if you worship him. But maybe understand that just because he was the one who opened your eyes ... a lot of people get their eyes opened in other ways, and a lot of people open their own eyes.
You are like the guy who wants to marry the first girl who consented to have sex with him ... she was drunk and thought you were someone else, and you are in love forever.
The guy is your hero, great. The fact that not a lot of other people agree with him, doesn't change what he is to you.
But maybe ... you could keep your love life to yourself?
j/k you are doing fine,.. i am just having fun with you.
03-15-18, 11:30 AM
#37
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There probably could be a lot of benefit to teaching people how to be safer from errant motorists, and from making their own errors, while walking.
03-15-18, 06:32 PM
#38
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Lots of weasel words that equals “no.”
Is there a motorcarforums.net where you recommend a long motoringsavvy course?
Since people driving cars kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people walking kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people riding bikes kill themselves.
And people driving cars kill OTHER PEOPLE MORE OFTEN.
Your “point” is pointless.
-mr. bill
Is there a motorcarforums.net where you recommend a long motoringsavvy course?
Since people driving cars kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people walking kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people riding bikes kill themselves.
And people driving cars kill OTHER PEOPLE MORE OFTEN.
Your “point” is pointless.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 03-15-18 at 06:39 PM.
03-15-18, 09:13 PM
#39
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Lots of weasel words that equals “no.”
Is there a motorcarforums.net where you recommend a long motoringsavvy course?
Since people driving cars kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people walking kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people riding bikes kill themselves.
And people driving cars kill OTHER PEOPLE MORE OFTEN.
Your “point” is pointless.
-mr. bill
Is there a motorcarforums.net where you recommend a long motoringsavvy course?
Since people driving cars kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people walking kill themselves MORE OFTEN than people riding bikes kill themselves.
And people driving cars kill OTHER PEOPLE MORE OFTEN.
Your “point” is pointless.
-mr. bill
You seem to be implying that no cyclists could benefit from learning things from experienced cyclists.
03-16-18, 06:23 AM
#40
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Weird post. You seem to be implying that no motorists could benefit from learning things from experienced motorists.
Street Survival
All of the classes are open to parents. Many of the courses are open to other adults.
$95.00 "is a bargain for life-saving education, don't you think?" (In my opinion you can't learn these skills in an "on-line course." YMMV.)
I point out the above only because I've taken the course. But there are a host of similar programs throughout the country. I'll leave it for the rest of the world to find their versions of these courses.
ps. I've written textbooks and taught courses on a completely unrelated geek subject, and my spouse is a professor.
I rather believe in education.
I rather like my textbooks and rather like the courses I've taught, and have thousands of people who agree with me. And my spouse is a brilliant teacher and mentor, and has thousands of students who agree. But there are MANY other excellent textbooks and excellent courses offered on my geek subject that I highly recommend. My spouse is one of the first to recommend other brilliant teachers and mentors to students too.
But I am skeptical whenever anyone claims the one true path to knowledge. Particularly for a "bargain" price.
I am even more skeptical when the one true path to knowledge is offered in two locations in Florida, two in North Carolina, and one in Vermont. The rest are "There are currently no sessions scheduled in this area."
-mr. bill
Street Survival
All of the classes are open to parents. Many of the courses are open to other adults.
$95.00 "is a bargain for life-saving education, don't you think?" (In my opinion you can't learn these skills in an "on-line course." YMMV.)
I point out the above only because I've taken the course. But there are a host of similar programs throughout the country. I'll leave it for the rest of the world to find their versions of these courses.
ps. I've written textbooks and taught courses on a completely unrelated geek subject, and my spouse is a professor.
I rather believe in education.
I rather like my textbooks and rather like the courses I've taught, and have thousands of people who agree with me. And my spouse is a brilliant teacher and mentor, and has thousands of students who agree. But there are MANY other excellent textbooks and excellent courses offered on my geek subject that I highly recommend. My spouse is one of the first to recommend other brilliant teachers and mentors to students too.
But I am skeptical whenever anyone claims the one true path to knowledge. Particularly for a "bargain" price.
I am even more skeptical when the one true path to knowledge is offered in two locations in Florida, two in North Carolina, and one in Vermont. The rest are "There are currently no sessions scheduled in this area."
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 03-16-18 at 10:08 AM.
03-16-18, 06:44 AM
#41
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But I am skeptical whenever anyone claims the one true path to knowledge. Particularly for a "bargain" price.
I am even more skeptical when the one true path to knowledge is offered in two locations in Florida, two in North Carolina, and one in Vermont. The rest are "There are currently no sessions scheduled in this area."
-mr. bill
I am even more skeptical when the one true path to knowledge is offered in two locations in Florida, two in North Carolina, and one in Vermont. The rest are "There are currently no sessions scheduled in this area."
-mr. bill
Seems like he might agree with you that education is a good thing and that there are multiple sources for it.
Most cyclists start out with the understanding that they are supposed to be "riding in the gutter". Many of them stay there or give up cycling.
There are techniques to riding in traffic that people have figured-out earlier.
Telling riders "they have to communicate" isn't really teaching them how to do that.
Some cyclists might benefit from a course (or reading/etc) rather than learning how to do all that by themselves.
There are techniques to riding in traffic that people have figured-out earlier.
Telling riders "they have to communicate" isn't really teaching them how to do that.
Some cyclists might benefit from a course (or reading/etc) rather than learning how to do all that by themselves.
Last edited by njkayaker; 03-16-18 at 07:06 AM.
03-16-18, 09:38 AM
#42
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"a course" - singular.
"reading" - ambiguous.
"etc" - ambigous.
Pluses are cheap.
Links to a course OTHER than the one on the other hand....
-mr. bill
"reading" - ambiguous.
"etc" - ambigous.
Pluses are cheap.
Links to a course OTHER than the one on the other hand....
-mr. bill
03-17-18, 08:18 AM
#43
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It's very clear that I was referring to other, multiple things (not this one thing). That isn't "amgibuous" at all).
"One true path" isn't a fair characterization of anything he wrote.
Pluses might be "cheap" but they aren't things he didn't say.
03-17-18, 05:23 PM
#45
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Overcome by events; see https://www.bikeforums.net/20228077-post944.html
03-18-18, 12:22 AM
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I think you’ll find he is behind all the endlessly repetitive cyclingsavvy threads and has close links with the organisation.
03-18-18, 09:34 AM
#48
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03-18-18, 10:42 AM
#49
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I wish I had taken driver's ed. with a Beamer...maybe I'd be Mr. Molly Ringwald. 
Weird post. You seem to be implying that no motorists could benefit from learning things from experienced motorists.
Street Survival
BMW Teen Driving School
All of the classes are open to parents. Many of the courses are open to other adults.
$95.00 "is a bargain for life-saving education, don't you think?" (In my opinion you can't learn these skills in an "on-line course." YMMV.)
I point out the above only because I've taken the course. But there are a host of similar programs throughout the country. I'll leave it for the rest of the world to find their versions of these courses.
ps. I've written textbooks and taught courses on a completely unrelated geek subject, and my spouse is a professor.
I rather believe in education.
I rather like my textbooks and rather like the courses I've taught, and have thousands of people who agree with me. And my spouse is a brilliant teacher and mentor, and has thousands of students who agree. But there are MANY other excellent textbooks and excellent courses offered on my geek subject that I highly recommend. My spouse is one of the first to recommend other brilliant teachers and mentors to students too.
But I am skeptical whenever anyone claims the one true path to knowledge. Particularly for a "bargain" price.
I am even more skeptical when the one true path to knowledge is offered in two locations in Florida, two in North Carolina, and one in Vermont. The rest are "There are currently no sessions scheduled in this area."
-mr. bill
Street Survival
BMW Teen Driving School
All of the classes are open to parents. Many of the courses are open to other adults.
$95.00 "is a bargain for life-saving education, don't you think?" (In my opinion you can't learn these skills in an "on-line course." YMMV.)
I point out the above only because I've taken the course. But there are a host of similar programs throughout the country. I'll leave it for the rest of the world to find their versions of these courses.
ps. I've written textbooks and taught courses on a completely unrelated geek subject, and my spouse is a professor.
I rather believe in education.
I rather like my textbooks and rather like the courses I've taught, and have thousands of people who agree with me. And my spouse is a brilliant teacher and mentor, and has thousands of students who agree. But there are MANY other excellent textbooks and excellent courses offered on my geek subject that I highly recommend. My spouse is one of the first to recommend other brilliant teachers and mentors to students too.
But I am skeptical whenever anyone claims the one true path to knowledge. Particularly for a "bargain" price.
I am even more skeptical when the one true path to knowledge is offered in two locations in Florida, two in North Carolina, and one in Vermont. The rest are "There are currently no sessions scheduled in this area."
-mr. bill
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03-18-18, 10:46 AM
#50
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Dude was a sock puppet from waaaaaay back. We'll leave it at that except that, post-St. Patrick's day, no more blarney.
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I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.