hindesite

I'm in the frustrating situation of having a frame replaced under warranty but the manufacturer (for no understandable reason and no explanation) has supplied an "upgraded" frame with different BB. The original bike has a 2x9 Shimano groupset and a Shimano SM-BB52 threaded BB, the new frame has a Race Face BB92 PF BB and is intended for a 1x10 groupset. Both bikes are midfat 27.5+ Boost 148 HT frames. Even the manufacturer admits there might be problems doing the buildover and the retailer has tried multiple replacement cranksets with no workable outcomes so far. I can't see any way forward, and I think this is long shot, but can anyone suggest a way round this (other than replacing the entire groupset, which probably won't be happening).

There's a lot of detail (and sorry, a long sad story) at https://hindesite.wordpress.com/2019...-a-midfat-mtb/

DOS

The explanation for the frame is probably that it was the closest comparable frame to the one you had that they happened to have on hand. I had a similar situation with a Cannondale replacement where I got a BB30 frame as warranty replacement for a BSA frame, which required I replace my crankset. In my situation, it wasn’t a big deal because I only needed a new crankset and was happy to upgrade anyway. I would have preferred staying with a threaded bb, but that just wasn’t an option given frame availability.

My only suggestions would be to negotiate around getting discount on a new groupset or do some research to determine whether there is a viable frameset from the company’s lineup that might work better for your needs.

hindesite

Yeah, I'm fairly sure they just grabbed a frame from the next batch that was similar, missed the difference, and got that airfreighted over.

Given that this is a warranty issue for frames that had a serious defect from new, I'm not anticipating paying for anything - though I think the retailer may balk at replacing the groupset (which will include cassette, chain, chainring, crank, BB, derailleur and shifter and would probably exceed the cost of the original bike when all the labour and work so far has been added in - though maybe they charge all that back to the manufacturer. (Not that I consider this to be my problem, just being realistic here).

I suspect that replacing the groupset is actually the only way forward, but I additionally don't want to lose the range that the 2x9 gives me vs 1x10, the difference is significant, hence my looking for help here.

Of course, after all the messing around (plus how bad the company is looking), they should have just shipped an equivalent whole new bike.

As an aside, I'm now totally unimpressed with how complex component choices and standards have become, and it is likewise clear that the service centre struggles with this, too.

tomtomtom123

A quick search of the Shimano site says the bb52 and bb94-41 are interchangable (for Hollowtech spindles, but different bb shells). So I'm not sure what your problem is about compatability.
Around $20 excluding tax.
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...b94-41a-209862

Assuming that the Shell is 92mm wide or 89.5mm plus spacers, 41mm bore diameter, and that the bb94-41 has the same outside width as the bb52, then there is no problem. There is no difference in a BB between a 1x or 2x crankset, unless you're having problems with frame clearance to the inner chainring with the new frame.

Shimano BSA mtb bearing cups are around 10.5mm wide. So a 68mm shell + 7.5mm spacers + 2x10.5mm = 96.5mm overall width. Plus or minus 1mm for rounding and other tolerances. You night want to search Google or call Shimano tech support to ask what the overall width of the bb94-41 is.

What is the problem when you try inserting your Shimano crank into the race face BB? If the race face bb is for 30mm spindle, but you don't want to swap with Shimano bb94-41, you could try to see if the FSA 30 to 24 adapter would fit, but I don't know if it's meant to fit directly into the dust cap or to replace it. If it's to fit in the dust cap then you would get an extra couple of millimeters from the thickness of the adapter. If it's to replace the dust cap then it depends on whether it matches the inner diameter of the race face bearing.
https://www.bike24.com/p250234.html

The question about whether or not the new frame has enough clearance for your original double crankset, you could try wrapping the spindle with some cloth, or wrap it in masking tape until the diameter changes from 24 to 30mm, and insert the crank into the raceface BB, to try and get it centered. put it all the way in and see if the inner chainring hits the chainstay or other parts of the frame.

If you want to do the BB replacement yourself, Shimano says to use TL-BB12 press and TL-BB13 extractor.
Press:
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...-tl-bb12-62159
There are other alternatives for the press, but whichever you get, you need it to contact the outer rim of the BB cups, and not touch the bearings or dust caps.

The extractor is expensive. There are cheap alternatives from X-tools / Radon rebrand. Chainreactioncycles seems to only have the 30mm extractor. Bike-discount has both the 30mm and 24mm. You would need the 30mm if the raceface is for 30mm, and the 24mm for shimano BB. Otherwise, you could get the springy slotted tool, although it might scratch the inside of the shell.
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...al-tool-646595
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...b-1928a-414829
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...0-86-90-922750
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/...al-tool-459386
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/.../rp-prod122317

shelbyfv

I doubt this will happen, seems you are fortunate to get a new frame Why not sell the replacement frame and move your components to a compatible frame?

dedhed

From my experience with friends having frames replaced under warranty, all the manufacturer is paying for is supplying a comparable (or better) frame. The LBS is only facilitating the frame transaction.
You the consumer are paying the LBS to get the old parts moved over/replaced/upgraded out of pocket unless you do it yourself, or the LBS eats part as "customer relations". I'm not holding my breath.

DOS

This was my experience as well.I paid for my new crankset and for the LBS to swap components over. I could have done the build myself but LBS claimed that if they didn’t do the build it would invalidate the frame warranty. Also, I was happy to pay the LBS since they did all the engaging with Cannondale, and I was surprised I got a warranty replacement in the first place since my issue was a cracked dropout on a 12 yr old frame.

'02 nrs

sell the new frame & find a 2x9 compatible frame,not hard to do.but have you tried an eyeball test fit if there is room for your 2x9 crank???

mpetry912 

Seems like a lot of work to get back to a rideable bike which is what you thought you bought. A warranty replacement 1X11 frame will bring, what, 200 bucks on CL if you're lucky.

you could spend months on that project with the objective of getting back to a rideable bike.

Here's my take on it - what you bought is a bike that is spewed out by the thousands by huge factories in Taiwan. After production runs of Trek, Specialized, and the top line brands ends there are frames and components that are left over and those are mixed and matched to be resold as secondary brands such as the one you've got. As you point out, the frame is out of alignment from the factory. It probably did not pass QA somewhere down the line.

I think this is modern economic reality. In my opinion, I'd just ask your dealer for a refund of the whole bike since integration of the old components onto the new frame is either beyond economic sense or your ability, or both. Failing that, sell the whole bike on CL or even donate it and take the tax write-off. You'd be better off buying a comparable bike from one of the major brands. I say this only because you got a substandard product "out of the box" and the warranty process is not going to leave you with much more than a pile of parts, flying in loose formation.

And I do take your point about the endless proliferation of "standards" that make mixing and matching of parts just about impossible.

Sorry, I know it's not good news, but that's how I see it. Ask your shop if there's a manufacturer's rep you can talk to and plead your case

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

dedhed

What EXACTLY is your existing crank model that you'd like to install? What the crank (not BB) really are will determine what you can or can't do. What EXACTLY is your existing BB? Want better answers also include the shell width of the old frame as well as width of the new frame.
The specs on your blog for the old bike show crank FC-m3000-B2 which is a square taper and SM DD52 which is HT II. Those two items are not compatible so something is wrong.

tomtomtom123

In his blog, the screenshot of the specs sheet says BB52. The solution is extremely simple, and only took 5 minutes to find on the Shimano website. If he has 92 x 41mm shell, just swap the race face BB with a Shimano BB94-41A, as I mentioned in my earlier post. I gave all the instructions. Maybe a 30 minute job.

But yes, FC-M3000-B2 is supposed to be square tapered, so it is contradictory. If he happens to actually have a square tapered BB, then there is not much he can do if he has a 92mm shell.

If he has a 68mm or 73mm shell, he could probably use this BB92 to BSA adapter, assuming that the adapter has a 41mm outer diameter.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/J-L-BB92-BB...r/301825746922 Actually, they would fall out, since the 2 sides are not held together.

Here we have a photo of the old model that shows a square tapered spindle. So if it is the old model, then it is impossible to be BB52 since that BB is for 24mm spindles.


So yes, the OP is posting contradictory, and ambiguous information.

mpetry912 

the point is, he bought a bike, and ended up with a systems integration project.

one could spend months and lots of $$$ shotgunning "adapters" in seach of a solution, and he hasn't even got to the shifting yet.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

'02 nrs

follow chainline recommendations & rest follows.

mpetry912 

yep, just get a new crankset and a couple ebay adapters, and you're "good to go"

sorry. I don't mean to be dismissive. If it was all square taper old school stuff, I'd take this on in a minute. But the BB is a proprietary standard, and the 1 X 11 shifting will require new lever and some other stuff that is all meant to work together, not be interoperable across years or standards. I'm a pretty crackerjack wrench on lots of stuff but I would not take this project on. You may be able to bolt it all together based on the manufacturer's website, but good luck getting it to play, let alone hang together on a ride.

The number of adapters, one-off spline tools, and proliferation of standards would put me off it. Not so much that it couldn't be done, but why ? Just an exercise in frustration in my view.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

tomtomtom123

It's not that complicated to find a compatible BB or crankset. The problem is that he doesn't know what type of spindle he is using. If he has a 24mm Shimano spindle, It's a very simple job of swapping the race face BB to a Shimano BB94-41A BB, assuming that the shell is 41mm diameter and 89.5 or 91.5 (92)mm wide.

But yes, if he originally had a BSA square tapered BB, and the new frame has a 86.5, 89.5, 91.5 (92) shell, then he needs a new crankset, because there is no way to fit a BSA 68mm 73mm square tapered BB into a BB92 shell, unless I am mistaken.

The OP needs to explain what exactly he has, otherwise we can't give him the correct answer.

hindesite

Thanks, I can explain that.

The BB52 identification comes directly from the manufacturer's spec sheet; I don't have the bike here to check in detail, but the photo above is as I recall, exactly what the crank looks like.

I can't comment further than that, I'll leave that to those who know about this stuff.

tomtomtom123

Then it's not a BB52, and is instead square tapered. BB52 is for Shimano 24mm spindle for MTB hollowtech. You need a new BB and crank. (unless you can find some kind of rare adapter)

This is BB52. It has no spindle because the spindle is supposed to be part of the drive side crank arm.


This is UN55 with a square tapered spindle. It fits the crank arm that is pictured above. If you have the crank arms with you, just simply look at the hole in the crank and check if it's a square hole without a spindle. Do your crank arms have a spindle built in?

This is BB94-41A. It's BB92 for 24mm spindles and 89.5, 91.5 (92)mm shells with 41mm diameter. Assuming that your shell matches this specification, then you can use this BB if you want to use a Shimano hollowtech MTB crank with 24mm spindle (road spindle is shorter and uses a shorter BB71-41B for 86.5mm shell width, you probably don't want to use this unless you have a road chainline, frame clearance and a 86.5mm shell). Otherwise, if you want to continue using the race face BB, assuming that its really BB92 (since you don't know the shell dimensions, you'll need to measure it to find out) and that it's for 30mm spindles, then you'll need to find another brand of crank that has a 30mm spindle and fits the race face BB overall width. However, i see on the raceface website that some of their BB92 BBs are for 24mm spindles. So you might still be able to use the raceface BB with a shimano MTB hollowtech 24mm spindle as long as the overall width of the raceface matches the overall width of a shimano BB. Is the diameter of the hole in the raceface BB on your new frame 24mm or 30mm? What is the overall width? What is the shell width? Are there any spacers under the cups? You should also post some photos of your crank arms and BB and shell, otherwise we're just guessing.


Raceface BB92 for 24mm spindle.
https://www.raceface.com/products/de...x-type-adapter

Raceface BB92 for 30mm spindle.
https://www.raceface.com/products/details/cinch-bb92-bb
You should really go and take measurements of your BB, BB shell, and spindle hole size.

hindesite

I think the manufacturer specs are wrong, as a couple of people have pointed out.

However this is irrelevant, as the BB and crankset are going to be replaced together anyway, the assumption being that the BBs on the frames are completely incompatible.

hindesite

That's pretty good, and I'd be happy with that.

In my case however, the bike was only 12 hours old :-)

dedhed

If that's the crankset you have then the spec sheet is wrong on the BB. Probably a UN 52 bottom bracket. Which means basically you are screwed trying to use that crank or BB. You will need to find a new (or used) BB 92 crankset that is compatible with your drivetrain (derailleurs etc), likely at your own expense. Or fight with the manufacturer to get a frame compatible with your old drivetrain.


Look at that, I now have a mile of posts

hindesite

In NZ we're pretty well protected by consumer law it seems. We have the choice of repair, replace or refund.

The retailer has take responsibility for this, they have no choice.

In this case, the response from the retailer has been exemplary, having gone a fair way down the repair route, but has been "misdirected" (I'm being polite here) by the manufacturer. They are one of NZ's largest bike shops,so sell mostly mass market bikes.I suspect this kind of thing is well outside the normal range of stuff their service centre would have to deal with.

And to be fair to the manufacturer, as I mention in the article I linked, their initial response was outstanding.

hindesite

Thanks for the detail, I think the problem is as you mention here - the inner chainring being positioned to close to the frame, but it may also be the outer chainring interfering with the flare in the chainstay. I don't know if the service guys are 100% on top of this, they are a mass market bike retailer after all and probably mostly do assembly and servicing/replacement like for like and never have to research any of this kind of thing (nor would they ever have time to do so).

Silverback has supplied a frame that they describe as "single chainring specific" and aren't being particularly helpful about this, but it seems it may be impossible to solve this without replacing the entire drivetrain to what is intended for the new frame.

I think that the BB is not compatible and at least the crankset is going to have to be replaced is a given, but how much else will need to be replaced as well?

I'm not doing the work, the retailer is. I doubt they have even tried a Race Face BB, they seem to be trying Shimano cranksets and so I assume (perhaps incorrectly) Shimano BB also. I don't know if it is just marketing speak, but Race Face indicate their BB92 moves the bearings further apart and partly outboard of the frame, which might explain the problem with trying a BB that doesn't do the same.

hindesite

Because it is not my frame to sell. It is the retailer's, and they have to sort this all one way or the other.

I just need to be informed myself when discussing this with them.

tomtomtom123

I've written the solutions in the previous posts.

All you have to do is stick a Shimano MTB double crank with 24mm spindle through the hole in the BB cups all the way in and see if anything hits the frame. If the BB cups are for 30mm instead of 24mm spindle (you still haven't stated any dimensions so we're all still guessing), then wrap something around the 24mm spindle until it fills up the 30mm space. You could use a piece of cloth, masking tape, or even unused toilet paper. If you're going to the bike shop and they're testing different cranks, you could easily do this frame clearance test.

We still don't know what crank you have. You haven't posted any pictures. We can only guess from vague statements that it's square tapered. Does it have a long cylinder coming out of one of the crank arms, or do they have a square hole in them?

The only thing you need to know about the Raceface BB is the overall width and the diameter of the hole that the spindle goes through. You need to get those dimensions, otherwise we can't tell you what kind of crank will fit. Then you need to say what crank you want to change to. And if that crank doesn't fit the dimensions of the Raceface BB, then you need to measure the BB shell width and inner diameter to find out which BB to replace it with. I've already linked the information on the raceface BB, but you haven't said whether it has a 24mm or 30mm hole. Most likely the overall width will be similar to Shimano BBs, which I already stated is around 96.5mm.

Option A) If the width is close enough and the hole is 24mm, then you simply need a Shimano MTB crank with 24mm spindle.

Option B) If the overall width is very different and you want to use a Shimano MTB crank with 24mm spindle, then you need to swap the BB. Which BB and how many spacers depends on the shell dimensions, which you haven't given.

Option C) If the raceface BB hole is 30mm and you don't want to switch the BB, then you need to find another brand of crank.

shelbyfv

Well, if you are confident they are required to resolve this, just relax. Clearly being "informed" is not going to happen