SRAM 1:1 and Shimano's Rapidrise
04-13-05, 03:02 PM
#26
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Yes the dual control stuff. Mind you, I am the first to say that dual control is not for DH type of riding. But low normal definitely should work well with the DH crowd.
04-13-05, 05:15 PM
#27
one less horse
I am a low normal advocate as well...been using the M950 series since 1998.
The relearning part is what scares most people away. The only reason some think it's bass ackwards is because they learned it the other way (or because they're drunk, heh). It's no harder than making the transition from thumbshifters to the first Shimano double thumb paddles to the triggers, dual control, whatever.
I am currently ruinning RR on one bike and regular on the other; it's no big deal.
I agree wholeheartedly with what others have said about the technical advantages as well.
The relearning part is what scares most people away. The only reason some think it's bass ackwards is because they learned it the other way (or because they're drunk, heh). It's no harder than making the transition from thumbshifters to the first Shimano double thumb paddles to the triggers, dual control, whatever.
I am currently ruinning RR on one bike and regular on the other; it's no big deal.
I agree wholeheartedly with what others have said about the technical advantages as well.
04-13-05, 08:47 PM
#28
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I don't see what all the fuss is about. But using Rapid Rise?, Dual control, Gripshifts or even road bike STI and most of them in the same week, I have never had any trouble throwing a leg over a bike and getting going. It's not rocket science. It all works for me.
CHEERS.
Mark
CHEERS.
Mark
04-13-05, 09:05 PM
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Wow dutchy, haven't seen you in ages, hows it going.
04-13-05, 09:41 PM
#30
What?
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Wasn't there a song made about Dutchy? You know, pass the dutchy dadadada or something? 
04-13-05, 09:46 PM
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this has to be one of the most confusing threads I have read. So the shimano makes 1mm cable pull into 2mm of derailler movement. Low normal, is what is the "normal" way, not rapid rise. Rear Derailler Thumb shifters make it easier to pedal for these "normal" deraillers?
04-13-05, 10:29 PM
#32
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Shimano rant follows.
This company pisses me off in so many ways, I can't even see straight.
As a MTB rider with over 15 years experience, I have seen lots of crap come and go. The top-mount Shimano shifters were cool. Light and easy to work with. The first-gen Rapidfire was an abortion. The second-gen Rapidfire was just about as close to shifting Nirvana as is possible and was good enough for ten freakin' years.
So what do those idiots do, cancel it for another shifting abortion and then make the triggers work backwards. Shimano's product managers should be shot.
I am holding on to my 8-speed XTR shifters as long as they hold up and then am going with SRAM triggers. Which are good, but not as good as they could be because they had to dance around Shimano's patents on the upshift lever.
AAAARRGGGGHHHH!
-Z (Mad-Dog Spot)
This company pisses me off in so many ways, I can't even see straight.
As a MTB rider with over 15 years experience, I have seen lots of crap come and go. The top-mount Shimano shifters were cool. Light and easy to work with. The first-gen Rapidfire was an abortion. The second-gen Rapidfire was just about as close to shifting Nirvana as is possible and was good enough for ten freakin' years.
So what do those idiots do, cancel it for another shifting abortion and then make the triggers work backwards. Shimano's product managers should be shot.
I am holding on to my 8-speed XTR shifters as long as they hold up and then am going with SRAM triggers. Which are good, but not as good as they could be because they had to dance around Shimano's patents on the upshift lever.
AAAARRGGGGHHHH!
-Z (Mad-Dog Spot)
04-13-05, 11:12 PM
#33
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I hate Flippy levers and the only thing that should be Rapid Rise is yeast.
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04-14-05, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DinoShepherd
Shimano rant follows.
This company pisses me off in so many ways, I can't even see straight.
As a MTB rider with over 15 years experience, I have seen lots of crap come and go. The top-mount Shimano shifters were cool. Light and easy to work with. The first-gen Rapidfire was an abortion. The second-gen Rapidfire was just about as close to shifting Nirvana as is possible and was good enough for ten freakin' years.
So what do those idiots do, cancel it for another shifting abortion and then make the triggers work backwards. Shimano's product managers should be shot.
I am holding on to my 8-speed XTR shifters as long as they hold up and then am going with SRAM triggers. Which are good, but not as good as they could be because they had to dance around Shimano's patents on the upshift lever.
AAAARRGGGGHHHH!
-Z (Mad-Dog Spot)
This company pisses me off in so many ways, I can't even see straight.
As a MTB rider with over 15 years experience, I have seen lots of crap come and go. The top-mount Shimano shifters were cool. Light and easy to work with. The first-gen Rapidfire was an abortion. The second-gen Rapidfire was just about as close to shifting Nirvana as is possible and was good enough for ten freakin' years.
So what do those idiots do, cancel it for another shifting abortion and then make the triggers work backwards. Shimano's product managers should be shot.
I am holding on to my 8-speed XTR shifters as long as they hold up and then am going with SRAM triggers. Which are good, but not as good as they could be because they had to dance around Shimano's patents on the upshift lever.
AAAARRGGGGHHHH!
-Z (Mad-Dog Spot)
it's clear you can't see straight otherwise you'd see that rapid rise is clearly the better way to shift.
Shifting aboprtion....hee hee, I'd call gripsh*tters that..
anyone who's spent more than a passing flick with Dual control will realise quite quickly that there are several advantages over triggers shifters.
Like being able to brake and upshift or down shift at the same time.
Really it's quite easy...
04-14-05, 09:27 AM
#35
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Tim -
While I am pleased that the new levers/shifters are working for you. This opinion, however, seems to be in the distinct minority.
Braking/shifting has never been a problem with the old-style. As anyone whose "spent more than a passing flick" with them knows.
Its not the argueement over which is best. As that is clearly a dead end. What pisses me off is Shimano's refusal to let the marketplace vote with their wallets for what they really want.
-Z (Capitalist-Dog Spot)
While I am pleased that the new levers/shifters are working for you. This opinion, however, seems to be in the distinct minority.
Braking/shifting has never been a problem with the old-style. As anyone whose "spent more than a passing flick" with them knows.
Its not the argueement over which is best. As that is clearly a dead end. What pisses me off is Shimano's refusal to let the marketplace vote with their wallets for what they really want.
-Z (Capitalist-Dog Spot)
04-14-05, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PWRDbyTRD
so why does it take 3 pushes to make it up the cogs with the shimano but only 1 with SRAM?
For reference the actuation ration on front derailleurs are the the SAME between SRAM and Shimano. So even a Shimano lover can buy a front x-7, x-9, or x-10 front derailleur and match it with Shimano rapid fire or an integrated right lever.
Lets face it, it's IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate front cable rub across all your gear choices. That is why the lefty gripshift is so popular.
04-14-05, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by serious
I have the Low Normal XT setup on my bike and I have gotten used to it with few problems. I believe that Low normal is clearly a better setup, especially for recreational riders. If you are not an old dog who needs to learn new tricks, it should be a no brainer!
For non-racers, and most of us fall in that category, downshifting is generally more important (critical) than upshifting. Low Normal allows you to do that in a controlled manner - no need to soft pedal or hesitate. Just use you thumb to click your way into lower gears. And you can pre-click while coasting!
And khuon you have it wrong. Downshifting is easy and you can downshift several gears at a time. Just push the break lever way down. So when faced with a downhill section Low Normal can get you several gears higher in a hurry.
If you are objective about the whole thing, Low Normal makes a lot of sense. If you resist re-learning to shift, you will find a 1000 problems with Low Normal - most of them related to the fact that you are not willing to re-learn gear shifting.
For non-racers, and most of us fall in that category, downshifting is generally more important (critical) than upshifting. Low Normal allows you to do that in a controlled manner - no need to soft pedal or hesitate. Just use you thumb to click your way into lower gears. And you can pre-click while coasting!
And khuon you have it wrong. Downshifting is easy and you can downshift several gears at a time. Just push the break lever way down. So when faced with a downhill section Low Normal can get you several gears higher in a hurry.
If you are objective about the whole thing, Low Normal makes a lot of sense. If you resist re-learning to shift, you will find a 1000 problems with Low Normal - most of them related to the fact that you are not willing to re-learn gear shifting.
On the pro side, I think that a Low Normal system effectively assists the shifting action since the chain naturally wants to derail onto small cogs. It also helps work against the tension in the chain.
You'll now be pulling to derail the chain downward. And as I said, thats where the chain naturally goes anyway. It seems like a low-normal system would be in better equilibrium.
Just remember that there is ZERO argument between ESP vs Rapid-Rise. One is an actuation ration, the other is direction of cable pull in the derailleur. It's 100% feasible that SRAM could release an X.0 Low-Normal derailleur (with grip-shift no less). Just remember though. You will lose the capability to grab multiple gears in once swipe with such a system.
Finally, just remember that you lose the ability in Rapid-Rise to grab multiple gears at one point. So 2 and three click upshifts are history.
04-14-05, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DinoShepherd
Shimano rant follows.
This company pisses me off in so many ways, I can't even see straight.
As a MTB rider with over 15 years experience, I have seen lots of crap come and go. The top-mount Shimano shifters were cool. Light and easy to work with. The first-gen Rapidfire was an abortion. The second-gen Rapidfire was just about as close to shifting Nirvana as is possible and was good enough for ten freakin' years.
So what do those idiots do, cancel it for another shifting abortion and then make the triggers work backwards. Shimano's product managers should be shot.
I am holding on to my 8-speed XTR shifters as long as they hold up and then am going with SRAM triggers. Which are good, but not as good as they could be because they had to dance around Shimano's patents on the upshift lever.
AAAARRGGGGHHHH!
-Z (Mad-Dog Spot)
This company pisses me off in so many ways, I can't even see straight.
As a MTB rider with over 15 years experience, I have seen lots of crap come and go. The top-mount Shimano shifters were cool. Light and easy to work with. The first-gen Rapidfire was an abortion. The second-gen Rapidfire was just about as close to shifting Nirvana as is possible and was good enough for ten freakin' years.
So what do those idiots do, cancel it for another shifting abortion and then make the triggers work backwards. Shimano's product managers should be shot.
I am holding on to my 8-speed XTR shifters as long as they hold up and then am going with SRAM triggers. Which are good, but not as good as they could be because they had to dance around Shimano's patents on the upshift lever.
AAAARRGGGGHHHH!
-Z (Mad-Dog Spot)
Well, they kinda HAVE to use Rapid-Rise if they want their "pod shifters". Otherwise, both the chain tension and derailleur spring work against the downshift to a bigger gear.
Those guys in the magazines XTRing me off would be sporting wrist casts from carpal tunnel if they had to "flip" against the derailleur spring.
Integrated is VERY much a gimmick to keep OEMs locked into Shimano. Triggers work great. There is NO NEED for flippers.
04-14-05, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TimB
it's clear you can't see straight otherwise you'd see that rapid rise is clearly the better way to shift.
Shifting aboprtion....hee hee, I'd call gripsh*tters that..
anyone who's spent more than a passing flick with Dual control will realise quite quickly that there are several advantages over triggers shifters.
Like being able to brake and upshift or down shift at the same time.
Really it's quite easy...
Shifting aboprtion....hee hee, I'd call gripsh*tters that..
anyone who's spent more than a passing flick with Dual control will realise quite quickly that there are several advantages over triggers shifters.
Like being able to brake and upshift or down shift at the same time.
Really it's quite easy...
04-14-05, 04:45 PM
#40
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wiltsmith will you PLEASE learn to integrate your posts? You've got the last four.
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04-15-05, 01:22 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by Maelstrom
Wow dutchy, haven't seen you in ages, hows it going.
BTW I haven't hit any dogs this year.
CHEERS.
Mark
04-15-05, 01:43 AM
#42
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Good to hear. Dogs hurt 
..btw nice grab, the bike should treat you well
Again good to see you
..btw nice grab, the bike should treat you well Again good to see you
