FastJake

I have the opportunity to get a custom steel frame made at a very reasonable price. I have race bikes, commuters, mountain bikes, etc. So what I'd really like is an "ultimate" expedition touring bike.

Rather than list every single braze-on that I want and have everyone criticize my choices, I'm going to leave it more open-ended and see what I might be missing. Basically, I'm thinking of a steel frame/fork with big tire clearance: enough for a 2.4" tire and fenders. Sort of like the Surly Ogre. But I will run drop bars, and the geometry will reflect that.

I will stick to the most common standards like a 1 1/8" threadless headset, English threaded bottom bracket, etc. and not do anything stupid that I won't be able to get parts for in three years. So don't worry about that.

A couple specific questions:
- Long chainstays, and how long? Should I go overboard and spec something like 48-50cm? Is there any downside to this?
- Trailer mount? I've never had a trailer, but would like to leave that option open if I ever want one. Any recommendations here?

pdlamb

At the speed of thought:
17.5" is a pretty good length. Much longer and you may have to splice two chains on a big chain wheel.
Go ahead and get fender eyelets -- better to leave them unused, should you choose that route, than to wish you had them later.
Rack mounts, front and rear.
I've never had a third bottle rack under the down tube I could use without interference with large tires, so I'd stick with two bottle mounts.
Do you want a bright paint job that looks pretty, or a drab paint job that's not noticeable?

imi

My off-the-peg Bob Jackson World Tour has all the braze ons I wanted and use.
I ordered it with 132.5mm rear spacing so both MTB and Road hubs fit.

Here's the description from their website.

Built from Reynolds 631 Oversize tubing & Fork Blades. Cast Long Point lugs & BJ top eyes on the seat stays, cast bottom bracket shell & crown. Cast Horizontal dropouts are also fitted with double eyes front & rear. (Rear Dropout spacing is 130mm as standard, 135mm available on request).This frame is built to fit Cantilever or `V` brakes which allows a 700-32 tyre(MAX) with mudguards to be fitted. Fitted with Lever bosses on the down tube (for down tube levers,available with down tube adjusters instead of lever bosses on request) & cable eyes on lower headtube (for STI`s, Ergos & bar end shifters), 3 sets of bottle fittings, rack eyes fitted to the seat stays & lowrider fittings on the fork blades, pump pip behind headtube, chain hook, 2 slotted stops on side of the top tube for rear brake cable. Crown, brake& chainstay bridges are tapped for mudguard fitting.

https://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=43&osCsid=60ghh8dmt39ufgltme22vsi6d2

bikemig 

I like the OP's idea of going only with stuff that you can get parts for. Personally I'd go with 26 inch over 700c as well.

I like the braze ons on Imi's Bob Jackson and I'd go with those. The 3d water bottle cage is a plus.

Agree with pdlamb that 17.5 is probably around right. 48-50 cm is a bit massive. My 1983 Trek 720 has 18 inch stays and those are fine. You certainly shouldn't have heel strike issues with that and the bags are nicely centered over the rear axle.

MixedRider

This is almost a little too open ended.

Heavy duty, quality steel?
S&S couplers for traveling?
Disc brakes or rim brakes?
Is it frame or frame&fork?
Paint color/graphics?

elcruxio

Disc Brakes

145mm tandem rear spacing so you can get a dishless cassette'd rear wheel in the back. It'll also help with tire clearance.

You could consider the nominal wheel size to be 27.5. That would allow you to use really wide 27.5 mtb tires and 28 road tour tires. But that might be a bit gimmicky.

Every braze on imaginable naturally.

Oversize tubes with thick end butts. I'd use reynolds 853 29er zone butted tubes as those are some of the stiffest on the market.

M6 rack eyelets pushed back on the dropout area so you can use a lock nut on the inside. An M6 screw is disproportionally stronger than an M5. Seatstay braze ons can be m5's

robow

To me it would be about fit. The right slack angles, the effective top tube not being too long, head tube being long enough that I don't need a ton of spacers. The 132.5 rear drop out is a must. Oh and a sloping crowned fork, just because.

bikemig 

Nah, has to be a flat fork crown; those look so cool.

FastJake

1. I'm not decided on the tubing yet. Open to suggestions. Heavy duty preferred to lightweight. But I don't need a monster, I myself only weigh 140lbs.
2. S&S couplers are a good idea, I hadn't seriously thought about those.
3. Rim brakes all the way. No reason for anyone to try and convince me otherwise.
4. Probably frame and fork.
5. Does it matter? I hadn't thought about it too much.

Oh yeah, fit will be paramount. I can't ride a bike when the top-tube is too long, so I'll be sure to get that right. I'm a little unsure of the ideal seat tube and head tube angles, but I should be able to figure those out.

fietsbob

Might trade my Bike Friday pocket Llama in for a New NWT frame , keep the Rohloff, disc Brakes SON disc Hub eDelux lights

Thud Buster .. Trekking Bars Mudguards Front rack, Etc. gain a bit lower BB a chain tensioning dropout, Kickstand Mount.

Trailers (2 wheel)

Bike friday uses an Industrial High pressure Air hose Quick disconnect and a section of hose on the trailer , It works well ,

I have had The Burly Co Op era Alternate Hitch which is Its Own QR, . is free to rotate, + an Elastomer with a pin through it.

the elastomer ball and Stainless socket Chariot Hitch works very Well too . Socket piece Works under an axle nut or QR..



For My last custom Build experiment:
Featured 2 side by side top tubes were also loop Seat and Chainstays .. same tubes, 2 bends in them.

stiffened main triangle up laterally.. Used a vertical Oval Down tube ... descended with perfect stability..

enhanced with a hydraulic, adjustable, steering damper..

4 bottle mounts.. 1 under the down tub took my MSR Petrol bottle..

tall steerer tube..



Long frame Pump went between the 2 top tubes. They got a Gusset plate behind the head tube.

A portion of the work and design was My Own , adopting cargo & Tandem frame Parts .
having the Builder's shop tools to Use Myself.

Split The drop Bars , for packing.. made a stem to clamp the 2 sections.


Biplane fork crown, some offset at the fork crown , some rake of the blades .. 4 eyelet dropouts.

Re Used my Bruce Gordon Low Rider & rear racks ..

Chris Pringle

Your specific questions:
* 460mm chainstays (à la Surly LHT) should be long enough and will allow plenty of tire clearance. Do question whether you might have to buy a couple of chains with every maintenance schedule if you go with 50cm chainstays.
* I believe any bike can be adapted for a trailer mount, but it seems counterproductive if your plans are to build a narrowly-purpose loaded touring bike. But if you think it will help you one day on singletrack off-road touring, go for it.

Agree with others on:
* 26" wheels if you plan on worldwide touring
* S&S couplers are great for worldwide touring/travel, esp. if you go with long chainstays
* Disc brakes for expeditions in muddy/wet terrain

To consider:
* Mid-trail front geometry to compensate for the fat tires and long chainstays

A thought on fenders -- Most fenders in the market tend to top off at 60mm which will give you clearance and coverage for tires up to 2.1", but there might be some special fenders in the market for 2.4" tires. Using fenders for hardcore off-road expedition, I suppose, will be more of a nuisance or even dangerous. Go with the big tire clearance but suggest not to insist much about fender clearance for those kind of tires with your builder.

robow

bikemig, Flat crown fork is soooo old school, but I could live with it if you dressed it up with some nice lugs

Fastjake, as far as those angles are considered, just stay with some of the more classic angles and designs. Man's anatomy hasn't changed much over the last 40 years. Btw, here's a free CAD design software for bicycles that is neat to play around with:
www.bikecad.ca | Bicycle Design Software

Squeezebox

May I suggest that you work on your pack list 1st. 30 lbs or 130 lbs. makes a lot of difference on the bicycle to use. S&S will cost almost 1K$. the LHT is almost nuke proof. But do think that will really happen to you. Your name FastJake will be revoked. Look at what you can comfortable do without. Pack light get a lighter bicycle and you will probably be happier.

mstateglfr 

I would want this. https://antbikemike.wordpress.com/custom-frames/
...or something really similar.

I would want-
700 wheels
Dyno hub
Square taper 110/74 triple
9sp cassette
45mm chainstays
Mounting points for front and rear rack and fenders
3 bottle mount points
Bar end shifters
Lugged steel frame and fork
Canti or mini v brakes
1 1/8 threaded fork so i can use a threadless adapter to adjust bar height since i will forever want to fiddle with bar height.
Ability to fit up to 42s, but probably wouldnt go over 38s. No reason to not still have some wiggle room.

mdilthey

Nick at Gypsy by Trade did something cool with his custom frame. He added a strut on the driveside between the seat tube and the seat stay for carrying the bike over one shoulder:



A good camping spot can often mean a trek off-trail. I dig this portage handle idea.

Tourist in MSN

If I was writing the specs, I would have a fork with the standard braze on fittings for a low rider rack, but also have the three in a row fittings to mount a Salsa anything cage. If the low rider brazeon fittings were a few inches higher than typical, that would give you more clearance under a pannier if you do any off road travel. The lowest mount does not have to be attached to the dropout, it can be a few inches higher. But, if you use cantilever brakes keep in mind that you may have to fit the brakes in between the panniers. Not sure if you are using cantilever, disc or V brakes. I have no objection to V brakes with travel agent to make them work with normal brake levers, I use them on one bike.

S&S couplers?

Downtube shifter bosses, not just a cable housing stop, that way you can put cable housing stops on that have a threaded adjustment so you can tweak the shifter cables while you are riding.

If you are tall enough for 700c with no toe overlap, great, but otherwise consider a wheel size small enough to avoid toe overlap. I have an overlap problem with a 58cm 700c LHT frame, but I do not have a problem with similar size frames that use 26 inch wheels.

An early (1980s) Trek 728 touring bike I believe had 47cm chainstays, not sure anything longer would be needed. If it is too long, your frame could have more flex than you want. I think that is a good length. But if you go longer, would you like to also have a bottle cage between the seat tube and rear fender? If so get the mounts for it. But if it was me I would not have that much room because I would go with about 470mm chainstays.

Bottle mounts below the downtube that are far enough down the tube that you can put a big bottle in the cage.

Would you run derailleur or IGH? If IGH, a Rohloff specific left side dropout.

Would you have a kickstand? Where? How do you mount it?

If you go with disc brakes, do you want the cantilever bosses on the frame too? Some racks are mouted on the cantilever bosses.

If it was me, I would use 135mm rear spacing, but you might consider a dishless rear wheel. If you go with derailleur, that opens the door to 145mm.

If off road touring, how high do you want the bottom bracket? High to clear stuff or low for lower center of gravity?

Would you always use a rigid fork or would you want to be able to put a suspension fork on it? My expedition bike frame is designed to handle a 100mm travel suspension fork, or the rigid fork that came with it. I have used both.

Some bikes have the seat tube water bottle mounts up high, that limits your bottle size. But some bikes will put one of the mounts below the front derailleur, that lowers the cage, you can get a taller bottle in.

You were silent on racks, can you get them custom made too?

gregjones

I would contact a builder, probably one sells "stock" bikes----Co-Motion for example. Talk with them about what I was wishing for and rely on their experience and knowledge. Then follow their recommendations.

The BOB Yak is one of the more popular trailers. It doesn't require anything special on the bike should you decide to use a trailer.

saddlesores

bob trailer clips onto a skewer that replaces your whatever.
there's also an option for bolt-on wheels.

FastJake

Good stuff everyone, thanks. I knew there were three or fifteen things I hadn't thought about.

This is cool! I'm a mechanical engineer and have access to SolidWorks at work but this might be way easier.

Wow, lots of great stuff to think about.

It will definitely be derailer, probably 135mm rear spacing, rigid fork, and probably cantilever brakes for maximum tire/fender clearance.

My reasoning on the long chainstays was that I figured the longer the better - more stable, more heel clearance. I didn't think about having to use two chains or flex issues.

I think the bottom bracket works itself out. I was going to spec it low with skinny tires. Perfect for road riding. Putting on big tires for offroad would naturally raise it a bit.

I haven't thought about racks yet. Not sure if I could get those custom made or not. Open to suggestions!

aggiegrads

A kickstand plate if you think that you will want one.

i will echo the sentiment about bottle braze-ons in the right place. The seat tube one should be as low as possible. On a small frame, it gives enough room for a large bottle. On a large frame, it gives enough room for a frame bag. For the down tube mounts, as close as possible to the bottom without touching the seat tube bottle for the same reasons.

Chris Pringle

Very good point on toe-strike. This is really important if you plan on using your big tire bike off-road with tight curves at low speeds. Personally I would hate to go through a custom build to find out that my bike suffers from toe-strike and there is nothing else that can be done at that point.

LeeG

What I want doesn't matter, it's your bike. If you could specify anticipated load it would help the builder. I had a custom post apocalypse 26" wheel touring bike with very beefy chainstays that wasn't good off road but more of a Mad Max road tourer. As I got heavier it's ability to handle heavy rear loads declined but it was great with a front load. I'd leave the dimensions to the builder if they are experienced building a range of bikes. If they're on their tenth bike and you're getting a great deal, you may be getting what you're paying for.
"Expedition" means different things to different people. If you're a fast rider who wants a fat tire equivalent of a road bike for rough roads that's a different thing than a truck for carrying 50lbs of glamping gear. So narrow down the load for the road. Are you flying light over terrain or trucking with the kitchen sink.

3alarmer 

...this. I would definitely consider this on a custom touring bike for this Century. If you want to travel via air, that is.

imi

I considered S&S before my touring build, but decided it wouldn't be as great an advantage as it appears.
There's no way (please prove me wrong) that you can pack a touring bike with panniers, rack(s) and fenders in a standard size box.
this means that two pieces of baggage, or an oversized baggage, is unavoidable. In which case it is simpler to take the bike in a bike box.
Depending on which airline, this may be free of charge (British Airways for example).

Obviously this all depends on how often you fly, how you transport your bike at both ends, which airlines etc etc.
I would suggest doing some planning, cost estimation etc, with airlines you might be flying with, and see if S&S really makes a worthwhile difference.

If I max out a bike box to 23kg with the bike, a pannier, camping gear (and all those pointy things), then I can take the rest of my gear on in a pannier as hand-baggage.
No 'second piece', just one 'sporting equipment'

If you're ultralight (no panniers, fenders, racks, minimal lightweight gear) then maybe an S&S would be a good option - although those couplers weigh a ton!!

Tourist in MSN

I also like cantilever brakes. I know at this time you are asking about frame issues, not component issues, but some things overlap.

If you later go with V brakes instead of cantilever, look for long ones. I have some XT V brakes (XT BR-T780) that rub on my fender on my front wheel. I bought a set of Tektro 857AL V brakes, they have enough clearance on my rear wheel. I am considering buying another one of the Tektros to replace the XT on my front for better clearance. More info here: Tech Tip: V-Brake Arm Lengths | GRAVELBIKE

I mentioned in my other post above to get downtube shifter bosses instead of just having cable stops installed. My suggestion was so that you can have the adjustable cable stops mounted on there. But neglected to say a second reason is that this is an expedition bike according to your post. I consider an expedition bike to be a bike that you use when far from help. And if you have a shifter go out, if you have downtube bosses at least you can put a downtube friction shifter on to get by with until you get your regular shifter fixed.

I mentioned above in my other post, lower mount for bottle cage below the downtube for a larger bottle, this is a photo of what I am getting at. The velcro strap was to make sure the bottle does not hit the fender if the bottle started to come out by itself. The bottle is slightly to the left side for chainring clearance, but that is not evident in the photo. You can also see that the bottle cage on the seat tube could be lower for a taller bottle if they put the bottle cage mounts lower. In the photo, I made a bracket that allowed me to lower the lower bottle cage to a much lower position than Surly designed it.