Sub 11.0 story?
#1
Retrogrouch in Training
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Posts: 5,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Ok. So what's the deal with Sub 11.0 vs. Surly? I know that all the Sub 11.0 stuff (dropouts, Fixxer, whatever else) is now branded Surly, but what's the story behind all that? Who was Sub 11.0? How'd they become Surly? Were they always a QBP brand or was the Sub 11.0 -> Surly transition part of being bought by QBP?
Someone must know the lore.
Someone must know the lore.
Last edited by bostontrevor; 03-06-05 at 06:30 PM.
#2
Industry Maven
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wherever good bikes are sold
Posts: 2,936
Bikes: Thylacines...only Thylacines.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have no idea. When I started with the whole frame thing, all the hooded horizontals were labeled 'Sub 11', then they got phased out by the wholesaler and then 'Shazam' - They're available from QBP with 'Surly' stapmed on them.
Talk about negative connotations. It's like running pressed steel wheels on a Ferrari.
Still, a dropout is a dropout, and if the fooker can hold a wheel in place, who am I to argue?
Talk about negative connotations. It's like running pressed steel wheels on a Ferrari.
Still, a dropout is a dropout, and if the fooker can hold a wheel in place, who am I to argue?
#4
Immoderator
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: POS Tennessee
Posts: 7,630
Bikes: Gary Fisher Simple City 8, Litespeed Obed
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Are they really "Norwegian batchelor farmers"?
__________________
Originally Posted by Bikeforums
Your rights end where another poster's feelings begin.
#5
The Alternative Dressing
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In the condiments section of your local grocer
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Thylacine
Talk about negative connotations. It's like running pressed steel wheels on a Ferrari.
#6
old codger
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Victoria B.C.
Posts: 1,124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Miracle Whip. You might want to do a bit of research before slamming a poster. Unless of course you like wearing Egg, vi****r, mystery ingrediants, etc.
#9
The Alternative Dressing
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In the condiments section of your local grocer
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by icithecat
Miracle Whip. You might want to do a bit of research before slamming a poster. Unless of course you like wearing Egg, vi****r, mystery ingrediants, etc.
Easy FanBoy. I'm well aware that Thylacine is the creator of some very nice custom frames. I just want him to clarify his statement.
#10
Retrogrouch in Training
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Posts: 5,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Hehe... I suspect the statement was along the lines that when they weren't a QBP brand or at least not so obviously so--one poster claims that they always were but I've found references to them being carried by distributors other than QBP in the Sub 11.0 days and not just Thylacine--it had the feel of a small boutique operation that specialized in the then niche market of singlespeed components.
When they come out as a QBP house brand...Well, QBP has a reputation for quality products without any particular flair or soul. Nothing wrong with that, but not impression your seeking with a custom frame, for example.
When they come out as a QBP house brand...Well, QBP has a reputation for quality products without any particular flair or soul. Nothing wrong with that, but not impression your seeking with a custom frame, for example.
#12
Retrogrouch in Training
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Knee-deep in the day-to-day
Posts: 5,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by redfooj
so a surly is akin to a ferrari now?
Now this, on the other hand.... https://www.cccycles.com/1x1.html or perhaps https://www.thylacinecycles.com/xc_xcsl.htm
#13
Industry Maven
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wherever good bikes are sold
Posts: 2,936
Bikes: Thylacines...only Thylacines.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Surly is a mass produced invention of a large company, and are good bikes for the money. That's it. I'm not sure if it's my brand of consumerism or what, but I just can't get excited by corporate mass produced bikes. It's like being excited by Subway.
#14
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 10
Bikes: Lots of Mark Zeh Cycles!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Sub 11.0 Story
Hi Guys,
I was just looking online for some photos of the original Sub 11.0 dropouts for some long-overdue portfolio work. I see this posting is from a long time back, so here's a long-overdue story, if anyone is interested anymore...
Back at the end of the 1980's/beginning of the 1990's, Joe Breeze began selling his line of asian-built Breezers and his "Breeze-in" dropouts. The dropouts were an investment cast version of a compact and strong dropout design out of the 1920s (I'm pretty sure I've seen a bike with these in the vast collection of the German transportation museum in Munich-- I'll try to find this and post a picture, the next time I'm there) and made building rear triangles much-easier. These dropouts also noticeably enhanced the rigidity of rear triangles (I tested this out and was really surprised). Quality Bicycle Products, of Bloomington Minnesota was one of the wholesalers for these dropouts.
One day, Todd Cravens, one of the product managers at QBP, and an avid velodrome racing fan, approached me with the idea of designing and manufacturing an investment cast track dropout, with a similar type of connection to the stays. I designed these in AutoCAD and produced some first prototypes for them. QBP had these investment cast by one of their vendors in Asia and started selling them with the name of "Sub 11.0," since all great track riders can do the flying 200 under 11 seconds-- This is the standard of a great track rider.
As a bit of background, the single-speed scene hadn't even started then, so these types of dropouts were almost-exclusively the provence of the track scene.
They were an instant hit.
Not too long after that, QBP hired a fulltime industrial designer named Wakeman Massey (I think I got his name right) and started their Surly brand. They built the brand around stripped-down, rock-bottom-priced, all-action, well-designed cyclecross bikes. This quickly spread into a product line that included singles and whatever else is in the line today. I'm assuming that the single market quickly became much-larger than the market for track bikes, so they changed the Sub 11.0 dropouts to the Surly brand name.
Last Fall, at the Friedrichshafen bicycle show, I saw a version of these with fender or rack eyelets on a Surly, so they must still be in production. If you have any photos of the Sub 11.0 versions, I'd really appreciate being able to put them in my portfolio-- as with most things that I designed, I was late delivering and rushed the prototypes out of my shop without taking any decent photos of them.
Hope you guys have enjoyed using the parts. I think I still have the original engineering drawings for these in my file cabinet downstairs.
Best Regards,
MZ Munich, Germany
I was just looking online for some photos of the original Sub 11.0 dropouts for some long-overdue portfolio work. I see this posting is from a long time back, so here's a long-overdue story, if anyone is interested anymore...
Back at the end of the 1980's/beginning of the 1990's, Joe Breeze began selling his line of asian-built Breezers and his "Breeze-in" dropouts. The dropouts were an investment cast version of a compact and strong dropout design out of the 1920s (I'm pretty sure I've seen a bike with these in the vast collection of the German transportation museum in Munich-- I'll try to find this and post a picture, the next time I'm there) and made building rear triangles much-easier. These dropouts also noticeably enhanced the rigidity of rear triangles (I tested this out and was really surprised). Quality Bicycle Products, of Bloomington Minnesota was one of the wholesalers for these dropouts.
One day, Todd Cravens, one of the product managers at QBP, and an avid velodrome racing fan, approached me with the idea of designing and manufacturing an investment cast track dropout, with a similar type of connection to the stays. I designed these in AutoCAD and produced some first prototypes for them. QBP had these investment cast by one of their vendors in Asia and started selling them with the name of "Sub 11.0," since all great track riders can do the flying 200 under 11 seconds-- This is the standard of a great track rider.
As a bit of background, the single-speed scene hadn't even started then, so these types of dropouts were almost-exclusively the provence of the track scene.
They were an instant hit.
Not too long after that, QBP hired a fulltime industrial designer named Wakeman Massey (I think I got his name right) and started their Surly brand. They built the brand around stripped-down, rock-bottom-priced, all-action, well-designed cyclecross bikes. This quickly spread into a product line that included singles and whatever else is in the line today. I'm assuming that the single market quickly became much-larger than the market for track bikes, so they changed the Sub 11.0 dropouts to the Surly brand name.
Last Fall, at the Friedrichshafen bicycle show, I saw a version of these with fender or rack eyelets on a Surly, so they must still be in production. If you have any photos of the Sub 11.0 versions, I'd really appreciate being able to put them in my portfolio-- as with most things that I designed, I was late delivering and rushed the prototypes out of my shop without taking any decent photos of them.
Hope you guys have enjoyed using the parts. I think I still have the original engineering drawings for these in my file cabinet downstairs.
Best Regards,
MZ Munich, Germany
#15
Team Beer
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 6,339
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked 159 Times
in
104 Posts
Now this is why you pull a thread out of the grave. Awesome!
__________________
I'm not one for fawning over bicycles, but I do believe that our bikes communicate with us, and what this bike is saying is, "You're an idiot." BikeSnobNYC
I'm not one for fawning over bicycles, but I do believe that our bikes communicate with us, and what this bike is saying is, "You're an idiot." BikeSnobNYC
#16
Jonnys ilegitimate Father
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: toronto
Posts: 2,994
Bikes: too many too list
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#17
Industry Maven
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wherever good bikes are sold
Posts: 2,936
Bikes: Thylacines...only Thylacines.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
If you have any photos of the Sub 11.0 versions, I'd really appreciate being able to put them in my portfolio-- as with most things that I designed, I was late delivering and rushed the prototypes out of my shop without taking any decent photos of them.
Hope you guys have enjoyed using the parts. I think I still have the original engineering drawings for these in my file cabinet downstairs.
Hope you guys have enjoyed using the parts. I think I still have the original engineering drawings for these in my file cabinet downstairs.
Do you still do prototype CNC work?
#18
hateful little monkey
Join Date: May 2003
Location: oakland, ca
Posts: 5,274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#19
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Here are a few photos of an unused set. Let me know if you want anything different. If you really want me to, I can bead blast them clean.
Andrew
Andrew
Last edited by bikesandtools; 04-12-09 at 10:14 PM. Reason: added photo
#21
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 10
Bikes: Lots of Mark Zeh Cycles!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Prototyping of Sub 11.0 dropouts
Hello, I didn't live in Germany, when I designed these, I lived in the US, in Wayzata, Minnesota, so there was a very-local and long-standing connexion between me and QBP.
Thanks for posting the links to photos. I found the original drawings for these and will soon post them on my Mark Zeh Cycles Facebook group page.
Best Regards,
Mark
Thanks for posting the links to photos. I found the original drawings for these and will soon post them on my Mark Zeh Cycles Facebook group page.
Best Regards,
Mark
#22
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 10
Bikes: Lots of Mark Zeh Cycles!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Sub 11.0 dropouts
Hi Andrew, Do you still have those and will you sell them to me? I'd also happily exchange them for a new set of "Surly" dropouts, that are lying in my toolbox. Thanks, Mark
#23
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 10
Bikes: Lots of Mark Zeh Cycles!
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Prototypes of Bus 11.0s
I do not any longer have machining capability. However, I am still completely involved as a designer.
Best Regards,
Mark
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I have a semi-related question: Why the "hood" type flange around the dropout? I understand this is done on BMX race bikes to prevent a person from being gouged by a protruding axle in a pile up. Do the Sub 11.0/Surly dropouts follow the same logic since these dropouts were intended for use on track bikes?
ps. Five years and 24 posts and no one has posted the link to Sheldon explaining why we're all wrong for calling them "dropouts". Wow!
ps. Five years and 24 posts and no one has posted the link to Sheldon explaining why we're all wrong for calling them "dropouts". Wow!