John Phoenix

In another thread I wanted to take my e-bike to the fishing hole for 10 hours then return home.

Forum member Miro13car, reminded me, "You must remember that SLA must be recharged after even 20% discharge. Simply after every use.
tHEY just should never be left like for an hour to sit untill you got a chance to charge, sulfur start to deposit and it is mean DEATH for SLA. So how you are going to charge at the fishing?"

Good question. I need a really good answer. Heck.. I bought my kit just so I could get to the fishing hole with fishing gear, catch fish for hours then return home.

I have been thinking about this and if you cannot stop for as much as an hour before charging, then having an ebike for running errands is foolish and self defeating. What if you need to go to 3 stores and shop for an hour at each while your in the city at each store. With this battery problem, you cannot do it.

I need to be able to run around all day within my range limit (leaving half my range to get back home) and do my stuff and not worry about recharging until I get home at the end of the day.

Of course, you cannot plug in your charger at every store.

This being the case, is every e-bike seller that sells bikes or kits with SLA batteries falsely advertising? I have never seen an e-bike website say you cannot run errands around town because you will kill the battery.

How do you guys solve these problems?

GTR2EBIKE

Buy Lifepo4 batteries

John Phoenix

Cannot afford that. I need a solution for management of these sla's that came with my kit. Others out there I am sure cannot afford Lifepo4's and have run into this problem. I want to hear from you folks.

Sangesf

How about this... Buy huge sla batteries (35ah each). Go 10 miles and leave bike on(still drawing power, even tho it's very little it still draws some when idle ( in the neighborhood of .03a/hr )
In 10 hrs it will Only have used 3ah worth..
On a 35ah battery you'll prolly get about 28miles out of it.. So you could travel 12miles leave it on for 13 hours/use up 4ah

Sangesf

And then you can travel back another 12 miles and then charge it up
You can buy 3-35ah slas for under $210 on eBay.
Using that scenario you might get them to last a year.
OR buy a 36v 20ah lifepo4 (you can prolly get them on eBay auction style for about $310-360 depending on how fast you want to get it.

Sangesf

And it will last for 2+ years and still keep 80% range available to you..
As you can see LiFePO4 has it's advantages..
1/3 of the weight of SLA
Less than 2x's the price but lasts at least 3x's as long.
No sulfating effect.

dumbass 

Lead works fine if you can deal with the related problems from it. Most people don't use their ebike the way you are whereas, you are running the pack and sitting for hours at a time. The point that Sangesf is promoting is more or less on track. To control sulfation in a lead battery is to have constant current flow. But if your going to invest in more lead you may as well bite the bullet and go lipo or lifepo4. However, to my knowledge current in is as good as current out to control sulfation. So look for s small solar charger at places like Harbor Freight or Northern tool. You maybe about to find a low cost setup that will give enough currect to not only stop sulfation but give you a little kick back for your return trip. If you find a unit at Harbor Freight you can find 20% off cupons in many magazines and news papers. So if you founs something for say $40 less 20% ($8) you might solve your problem for 32 bucks. If you sign up for their cupon new letter online they sometimes have a special on solar chargers. Bob


EDIT:I just looked a solar pannels and chargers at Harbor Freight and you won't find one for 40 bucks. But it still might work for you.

BTW, what is the voltage and AH of your pack?

GTR2EBIKE

35ah SLA will weigh you don't quite a bit and take a long time to recharge

yopappamon

The solar panel idea is interesting. You would need 3 - 12volt panels for a 36v battery.

dumbass 

Maybe not. I think the question is how much current do you have to push through each pack to stop the sulfasion. I like many others have used a single 12v battery charger to charge multiple 12v batteries. In my case I was using twin 24v 18ah SLA packs. So when I got home I needed to charge 4 12v 18ah batteries but at the time I had only 1 12v Black & Decker charger. So I made a simple plug setup that allowed me to charge up to 6 12v batteries with the 1 charger. Of course the current was devided by the total of batteries being charged. So if I set the charger at at 6a each battery was actually charging at 1a.

The problem is solar charger get real expensive as the size increases. I saw on a scooter forum a guy who mounted a solar charger to the back of his scooter to charger his battery as he rode because his power draw was higher then his charge current. IT solved his problem and the solar cell wasn't very large.

Sangesf

Solar is out of the question.. Way to expensive for your current (pun intended) needs.
His point was he didn't have the extra money for the LiFePO4's
If he could buy the bike without the SLAs and save money that way and spend the extra that he would need for the LIs.
My best suggestion is wait until you have enough for the kit AND LiFePO4's that you would need.
LIs are a little bit more expensive but well worth the price.
My 36v 15ah one I bought on eBay cost me only $225 (paid for slow boat from china)
That's well within the price for SLAs at the same energy level and weigh 1/3.
My mileage on the single 36v 15ah was a Max of 21 miles. (heavy bike-steel frame {90lbs** and extra stuff {another 40lbs** plus rider {170 lbs.** for a total of 300lbs to be moved by 36v 500w hub motor)

I don't see why you couldn't get the same mileage out of a 36v 15ah battery.

There is a seller on eBay selling them for $300 and they're delivered in 2 to 3 weeks.
For 36v of SLA it would prolly cost you $200 and weigh the bike down considerably and prolly wouldn't last you a year.

miro13car

I use my 24V SLA Merida ebike for errands many times during summer .
I stay in grocery shop no longer than 1/2 hour.
I think slightly discharged SLA left for 1/2 hour should not do any damage.
Often I leave it turned on when I am with my wife on other ebike so electronics/controller/ draws some current which slows down sulfur deposit of course.
What is really issue here is the quality of SLA, lot`s of Chinese crap here.
The best is B&B brand hands down, they use virgin lead and manufacture they own Pb plates not like others.
They are slightly more expensive but superior to others, I checked oter brands on my Merida, like crappy Haze brand.
Curious, did anybody saw ebike kit sold with B&B batteries, I bet NOT!!
MC

John Phoenix

Now we are getting somewhere.

Great suggestion Dumbass. I may be able to find the parts for a solar charger to give me just enough current to keep the the sulfating from happening. The kit I ordered is a 36V 12AH kit. Since it's on its way to my house and I cannot get any extra cash now anyway, I'm going to keep it. I am on a disabled very low income and could not even afford this if it weren't for a family loan.. If I could solve my problem with used parts ( solar set up) for 50 bucks that may be the way I would have to go as there is no way I can raise 3 to 4 hundred dollars for a lifePo4 battery any time soon.

Here is a guy who makes a device just for this purpose.. but it's 225 dollars.. I'd need to do this much cheaper but this is worth a look at.
https://www.survivalunlimited.com/bat...er36vLugAC.htm

Dumbass do you know the URL of the guy with the solar on the scooter?

If I could do this for cheap and it works.. I may see about taking out a SBA loan to sell my own SLA ebike kits locally - and add the small charging device to the kit. That would rock. No one is doing it. Heck Dumbass, YOU should do it. Sure for those who can afford it the lifePO4 batteries are better but for those who can only afford SLA they would be getting a better product than anyone's SLA kit.

On another track. I'm kinda PO'd at these companies selling the SLA batteries with the kits knowing about these drawbacks. If none of the companies offered SLA batteries there would be more demand for LiPO4's and they would get cheaper so they are affordable for everyone.

Miro13car, Thanks for the tips. I do not know who's batteries these will be yet.

Ampedbikes is saying on their website that they are making their own batteries now. They are Li tech. https://www.ampedbikes.com/tubebattery.html

The direct drive motor with this battery is $750.00 and the geared rear motor with this battery is 900.00.

My kit cost me 526.. 501 for the kit and 26 for a torque bar for my front forks. The solution of the solar mini charger ( just to keep the battery in good shape) for another say 75 bucks for a total of 600.00 would be the best deal anywhere. I really want to look into a solution of this type to see if it would work.

yopappamon

If it doesn't matter which direction the current goes, and the amount of current is low, couldn't you just run a small bulb or resistor or led off the pack just to keep a little current going? It would be cheaper than a solar panel.

John Phoenix

That's a very good idea yopapamon. I am a member of a hard core science forum so I asked those guys about the idea of a small solar charger being able to keep the sulfasion from happening. i will post back when they reply. Your idea of just burning a small insignificant led or bulb sounds nice also but I think if it were really that simple batteries would come with LED's built in for that purpose and everyone would be doing it to protect their batteries.

There is desulfasion (google it) devices out there that claim they can remove all sulfasion and make the battery like new again, but they all require you plug the battery into the device for long periods of time and run off an AC circuit. These may be good to recondition an old battery to extend it's life. There are plans on the net to build these yourself too. I may look into these one some day if I can't afford LifePO4 batteries when these suckers die.

Sangesf

That item that was suggested is large and there are no specs as to how much current it supples.
If I had to guess, I would say it's probably only a 800mA (at 36v) so it's only really good for making sure there's no sulfating and at $200 totally not worth it. (also because it's not really portable.
They even state it's not for charging, only de-sulfating.

dumbass 

Here's a collection of solar chargers you can find on JC Whitney, Amozon and ebay. But it is only a small collection so you can visit these sites and select someting you think you like. I think this is an area of uncharted waters so I have no idea what size would do the best job. Keep in mind these are all 12v chargers and you have a 36v system. For the most part you can charge a 36v pack 1 12v battery at a time. However, this would still leave the other 2 batteries sulfating. You could buy 3 chargers but I not sure if you could actually connect them to all batteries at the same time without causing a big spark. Therefore, you may need to disconnect the series connection for charging 3 batteries at a time.

The unknown is still what charging rate is required to stop sulfation?

https://www.jcwhitney.com/solar-power...wx?filterid=j1

https://www.amazon.com/Wagan-2017-Sol...930004&sr=8-19

https://www.amazon.com/Sunforce-50022...930161&sr=8-21

https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-50005-...930161&sr=8-30

https://cgi.ebay.com/Solar-Battery-Ch...item45ee2dd7ed

https://cgi.ebay.com/12-Volt-SOLAR-AU...item43a230fbcf

dumbass 

LOL...OK, I found the solution for your problem. Check out this thread on ES forum. As long as you don't mind riding wit ha 6' x 6' solar panel on front and back of your bike you may not even need those batteries. Bob

Zephyr Boy

I had nothing but problems using SLA batteries for my ebike. After buying my 3rd pack of batteries(~$120/ each battery pack-3x 12V20A) within a year and a half. I thought to myself I could buy 3 more packs for the next year and a half (~$400) or get a LiFePO4 and have it last me for three years.

The problem I dislike the most is if you are not 100% on your charging/recharging cycles, you will notice a decrease in range through sulfuration. Each couple week, you'll notice another mile lost on range as sulfuration increases in your SLA pack. I went from 18miles on a single charge to ~ 6mile per charge, and it steadily got worst: 18, 17, 16, ....6 miles, then I would have to buy another pack. On the other hand LiFePO4 simply rocks, the range IINCREASED with each charge during the break in period, I could lock up my ebike for hours while not charging, and not worry if it lost range, awesome sense of freedom. It changed my ebike from a gimmick toy ( do I want to ride it today not knowing if I lost a mile in range from charging overnight?) to a workhorse that I can rely on...there are more benefits to LiFePO4 than what I mention, but I think you know them already.
SLA-High maintenace, very heavy, noticeable lost of range within months.

dumbass 

I couldn't agree with you more. In the end lifepo4 or lipo is the way to go in the long run.

Bob

dumbass 

OK John, read this posting and it may help you feel better. https://www.ebikeforum.com/electric-b...batteries.html

Bob

John Phoenix

Thanks Bob. Good post.

I also asked a few companies who sell ebikes about this issue and they tell me they have many costumers that cannot charge the bike at work and so it sits for 8 hours at a time. These people have not reported any loss of life with the SLA batteries. For example,

Mike from ElectricRider.com writes me :

" We've never taken real statistics, but based on the customers I speak with
and sell kits to, at least 50% of our customers use their E-bike to get to
work every day. Many of them do not have chargers at work, so their bike
sits all day until they ride home that night to charge. The forum people
might be right in that it will shorten their lives, but how much is really
the question. I can tell you it's not enough for anyone to have ever
complained about, or for us to have noticed on our own shop vehicles....

I think if you buy a lithium battery to avoid damaging your SLA batteries,
it's not near worth it. If you buy a lithium battery for the lower weight,
size, and longer life-span, it probably is worth it. "

Well I baby my SLA's and charge them as soon as I can. I have never let the battery go down half way yet. I have had the kit installed one week now. I need to do a road test to see exactly how much range I can get out of them at full charge but not sure how to go about it. I am ordering the Turnigy Watt Meter and power Analyzer on Wednesday. https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dProduct=10080

Hopefully, I can get it installed and figure out how to use it and give the bike a range test. How bad is it if I depleted the batteries down to zero?

dumbass 

Keep in mind the faster you discharge a pack (any pack) the shorter it's life span. This I can guarantee. So riding full speed maybe OK with your combo of pack controller and motor but more often then not riding full throttle for a long period is bad for the pack.

yopappamon

There are devices that claim to desulfate sla batteries. I've heard some say they work, some say they don't.

https://www.ecrater.com/p/3933304/bat...span-optimizer

SeizeTech

john, if you are handy enough to build up a solar charger then I would guess that it would be no problem for you to pull apart your SLA battery pack when it has died, and replace the SLA batteries that are inside.....for a savings.

If you rebuild your battery pack instead of replacing your battery pack, your best bet might be to just go ahead and use the bike like you want to use it. It'll cost you one set of batteries to find out if this is a good idea.