Enve/Vittoria dispute
03-16-19, 05:02 PM
#26
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It is a big deal, if the tyres come apart or blow up. Usually the issues are related to mounting and not being able to fix a flat in the field ect. Bad as it is, its not life and limb. This however is, if its true the casing split open or the bead is somehow compromised.
03-16-19, 07:13 PM
#29
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It's almost like ENVE feels like if they smear the tires they can raise enough doubt in court to be able to defend why they decided not to recall the rims when in reality all they have to do is say, "don't use these tires". It's not like we put mtb tires on road rims.....errrr...nevermind.
The only other thing that makes sens is if someone has been killed by this happening and this is ENVE's way of trying to plausibly dis off the liability.
The only other thing that makes sens is if someone has been killed by this happening and this is ENVE's way of trying to plausibly dis off the liability.
One has to wonder why Specialized Turbo Cotton tires aren't on the list. Are they that much less prone to failure than other cotton casing tires?
-Tim-
Last edited by TimothyH; 03-16-19 at 07:16 PM.
03-16-19, 08:49 PM
#31
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So when Enve chooses to bad mouth the top tires of two respected companies (Vittoria and Challenge) I listen. And what do I hear? Enve (who?) is claiming those two companies' top offerings are defective because they fail on exactly one manufacturer's rims. Went on-line to read about Enve (and Mavic). Interesting. Enve uses unidirectional fibers almost exclusively, Mavic uses mostly CF weave. That alone helps me understand 1) why Enves are lighter, higher end rims and 2) why issues at the hooks are to be expected, I would fully expect those hooks to want to crack and splinter with little fabric other than unidirectional strands. If you want issue-free hooks,incorporating some fibers running at right angles to the rim direction is what you do. (Boatbuilding 101 and I built about 50.) So those tiny sharp strands of unidirectional CF snag the cotton and rip it. Am I surprised? Not at all.
Ben
03-16-19, 09:38 PM
#32
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I don't have an ax here. I love Vittoria Graphene tires but will stick to the step down synthetic versions (the wet PNW). Also am a long ways from my first CF rim. But I've been watching this thread with some interest because I have know Vittoria tires to be good reliable tires for over 40 years. Yes, they have had runs of tires with problems. But it seems they have taken producing high quality tires in real volumes quite seriously. They don't just have their tires made in Asia, they bought the facility.
So when Enve chooses to bad mouth the top tires of two respected companies (Vittoria and Challenge) I listen. And what do I hear? Enve (who?) is claiming those two companies' top offerings are defective because they fail on exactly one manufacturer's rims. Went on-line to read about Enve (and Mavic). Interesting. Enve uses unidirectional fibers almost exclusively, Mavic uses mostly CF weave. That alone helps me understand 1) why Enves are lighter, higher end rims and 2) why issues at the hooks are to be expected, I would fully expect those hooks to want to crack and splinter with little fabric other than unidirectional strands. If you want issue-free hooks,incorporating some fibers running at right angles to the rim direction is what you do. (Boatbuilding 101 and I built about 50.) So those tiny sharp strands of unidirectional CF snag the cotton and rip it. Am I surprised? Not at all.
Ben
So when Enve chooses to bad mouth the top tires of two respected companies (Vittoria and Challenge) I listen. And what do I hear? Enve (who?) is claiming those two companies' top offerings are defective because they fail on exactly one manufacturer's rims. Went on-line to read about Enve (and Mavic). Interesting. Enve uses unidirectional fibers almost exclusively, Mavic uses mostly CF weave. That alone helps me understand 1) why Enves are lighter, higher end rims and 2) why issues at the hooks are to be expected, I would fully expect those hooks to want to crack and splinter with little fabric other than unidirectional strands. If you want issue-free hooks,incorporating some fibers running at right angles to the rim direction is what you do. (Boatbuilding 101 and I built about 50.) So those tiny sharp strands of unidirectional CF snag the cotton and rip it. Am I surprised? Not at all.
Ben
03-16-19, 11:41 PM
#33
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The tire maker claims that the radius on the hook bead is too small (not within ETRTO) and it is cutting the tires. The rim makers says it is within ETRTO spec but hasn't posted a drawing.
Has this problem occurred with these tires on any other rims?
If the tires are being cut (and I've seen this with another rim maker for this exact reason) it is most likely the rim. HOWEVER, it could be compounded by a breaker strip that is too narrow (that's the bit that wraps around the bead and goes slightly up the sidewall.
So...I'd say more info is needed before any conclusions are drawn?
03-17-19, 06:50 AM
#34
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The presenter talks about heat buildup and potential over-pressure from the carbon rims. But, still, it should have been able to withstand it. Other tires? Tubulars?
One thing I noted in the video is that I didn't see any bead reinforcement above the rim.
I don't have the tires in front of me, but I'm wondering if they lack adequate bead reinforcement.
03-17-19, 07:21 AM
#35
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It just makes sense to follow developments. No reason to conclude judgment. I'm not on ENVE rims and the rim tire combination I'm on has no reported issues. I hope it stays that way. I'm planning on transitioning from Open-tubular tires to tubeless next year. If some evidence of tire damage is possible with my rim & tire combination, I'll go to tubeless sooner.
03-17-19, 08:35 AM
#36
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Thanks for the video.
The presenter talks about heat buildup and potential over-pressure from the carbon rims. But, still, it should have been able to withstand it. Other tires? Tubulars?
One thing I noted in the video is that I didn't see any bead reinforcement above the rim.
I don't have the tires in front of me, but I'm wondering if they lack adequate bead reinforcement.
The presenter talks about heat buildup and potential over-pressure from the carbon rims. But, still, it should have been able to withstand it. Other tires? Tubulars?
One thing I noted in the video is that I didn't see any bead reinforcement above the rim.
I don't have the tires in front of me, but I'm wondering if they lack adequate bead reinforcement.
03-17-19, 09:44 AM
#37
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03-17-19, 11:18 AM
#38
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03-17-19, 11:19 AM
#39
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Also - about ENVE...
Amer sports bought ENVE for $50M in 2016. Amer's cycling business has dumped. So much so it offloaded MAVIC just a day or two ago to a Private Equity firm. Amer sports is selling itself and the cycling portfolio is a liability.
Was ENVE worth $50M? No. Not in real assets. Not only that but since 2016 the carbon wheel market has just plummeted. When you buy a company and spend more than it's actual assets are worth you still have to carry that difference as an asset on the books. It's called "Goodwill". It's meant to represent the "value" of the brand, people, ability to innovate, etc. While I am sure they did their due diligence beforehand I have no doubt that when the dust settled there was a Goodwill asset on the books that has been bringing the profitability of the cycling side of Amer down so much that it's been a massive liability.
I have known individuals who have worked at ENVE/Mavic who has all scrambled for the door in the last few years. "This place is like a sinking ship."
Honestly I think Amer would have dumped ENVE as well when it tossed Mavic but the goodwill nut makes it impossible to sell. I would not be surprised if it's ridden for what it's worth - pieces sold off or it's simply completely closed. - Unless the carbon wheel market turns around. As an owner of a wheel building company - I don't see that happening in any real amount. Definitely not enough to right this sinking ship.
Personally I wouldn't believe a word ENVE has to say and I would 100% trust every tire manufacturer who comes out refuting ENVE's claims. This is really disgusting. It's almost like ENVE feels like if they smear the tires they can raise enough doubt in court to be able to defend why they decided not to recall the rims when in reality all they have to do is say, "don't use these tires". It's not like we put mtb tires on road rims.....errrr...nevermind.
The only other thing that makes sens is if someone has been killed by this happening and this is ENVE's way of trying to plausibly dis off the liability.
Amer sports bought ENVE for $50M in 2016. Amer's cycling business has dumped. So much so it offloaded MAVIC just a day or two ago to a Private Equity firm. Amer sports is selling itself and the cycling portfolio is a liability.
Was ENVE worth $50M? No. Not in real assets. Not only that but since 2016 the carbon wheel market has just plummeted. When you buy a company and spend more than it's actual assets are worth you still have to carry that difference as an asset on the books. It's called "Goodwill". It's meant to represent the "value" of the brand, people, ability to innovate, etc. While I am sure they did their due diligence beforehand I have no doubt that when the dust settled there was a Goodwill asset on the books that has been bringing the profitability of the cycling side of Amer down so much that it's been a massive liability.
I have known individuals who have worked at ENVE/Mavic who has all scrambled for the door in the last few years. "This place is like a sinking ship."
Honestly I think Amer would have dumped ENVE as well when it tossed Mavic but the goodwill nut makes it impossible to sell. I would not be surprised if it's ridden for what it's worth - pieces sold off or it's simply completely closed. - Unless the carbon wheel market turns around. As an owner of a wheel building company - I don't see that happening in any real amount. Definitely not enough to right this sinking ship.
Personally I wouldn't believe a word ENVE has to say and I would 100% trust every tire manufacturer who comes out refuting ENVE's claims. This is really disgusting. It's almost like ENVE feels like if they smear the tires they can raise enough doubt in court to be able to defend why they decided not to recall the rims when in reality all they have to do is say, "don't use these tires". It's not like we put mtb tires on road rims.....errrr...nevermind.
The only other thing that makes sens is if someone has been killed by this happening and this is ENVE's way of trying to plausibly dis off the liability.
03-17-19, 11:42 AM
#40
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An easy way to check this - on a wheel that has had tire bead/casing issues, run your bare hhand arond the the rim inside. If I am right, this will be a very unpleasant experience. ft you merely get a paper cut, well Vittoria's claim of a sharp hook is verified.
I am likely to never be with 100 yards of a bare Enve rim, so I am not volunteering for this research. Those who defend the rims should try this and report back.
Ben
03-17-19, 11:59 AM
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03-17-19, 02:24 PM
#43
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I don't know that. But building a hook with very little besides resin attaching it to the rest of the rim doesn't seem smart and a formula for the hook splintering off.
An easy way to check this - on a wheel that has had tire bead/casing issues, run your bare hhand arond the the rim inside. If I am right, this will be a very unpleasant experience. ft you merely get a paper cut, well Vittoria's claim of a sharp hook is verified.
I am likely to never be with 100 yards of a bare Enve rim, so I am not volunteering for this research. Those who defend the rims should try this and report back.
Ben
An easy way to check this - on a wheel that has had tire bead/casing issues, run your bare hhand arond the the rim inside. If I am right, this will be a very unpleasant experience. ft you merely get a paper cut, well Vittoria's claim of a sharp hook is verified.
I am likely to never be with 100 yards of a bare Enve rim, so I am not volunteering for this research. Those who defend the rims should try this and report back.
Ben
03-17-19, 02:41 PM
#44
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Can you tell how much of a radius is on the hooked part of the rim? Both inner and outer part of the hook, but in particular the outer edge of the hook and the outer edge of the rim.
03-17-19, 03:10 PM
#45
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^ not really but if there was a sharp burr, I would have felt it. Personally with a soft casing you are likely to do more damage with a tire iron
03-17-19, 03:23 PM
#46
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I do know one disc wheel manufacturer who has their hooks as a solid piece and then cuts that piece away leaving the hook but they have issues with sharp edges cutting tires.
If i understand Vittorias claim that the rims have a 0.2mm radius on the hook, that is pretty small and could cause the problems they describe.
03-17-19, 10:54 PM
#48
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I don't know that. But building a hook with very little besides resin attaching it to the rest of the rim doesn't seem smart and a formula for the hook splintering off.
An easy way to check this - on a wheel that has had tire bead/casing issues, run your bare hhand arond the the rim inside. If I am right, this will be a very unpleasant experience. ft you merely get a paper cut, well Vittoria's claim of a sharp hook is verified.
I am likely to never be with 100 yards of a bare Enve rim, so I am not volunteering for this research. Those who defend the rims should try this and report back.
Ben
An easy way to check this - on a wheel that has had tire bead/casing issues, run your bare hhand arond the the rim inside. If I am right, this will be a very unpleasant experience. ft you merely get a paper cut, well Vittoria's claim of a sharp hook is verified.
I am likely to never be with 100 yards of a bare Enve rim, so I am not volunteering for this research. Those who defend the rims should try this and report back.
Ben
03-18-19, 03:43 AM
#49
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China has been dumping a lot of rims and wheels on the market.
Those in top tier racing may still be buying Enve or Zipp or other big brands.
However, I would imagine that many of the more ordinary cyclists will be purchasing direct Asian imports, or perhaps used wheels. It is hard to justify dropping a few thousand on new wheels when one can buy wheels that appear nice for a fraction of the cost.
Will we see an evolution of wheel depth with cyclists moving back towards lighter wheels with less depth?
A move away from carbon brake tracks, in one form or another?
Getting a company's name in the news is generally considered good, but I have to wonder if this will be bad for Enve if they ultimately demonstrate this being as much of an issue with their rims as with the tires.
03-18-19, 05:31 AM
#50
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If it was the tires, every wheel maker would be complaining. Every wheel maker would be issuing warnings, to avoid liability.
Enve is smart ot issue a warning,they just issued the wrong warning. There is a compatibility issue with One Enve rim and two sorts of tires from two brands. The warning should simply identify that incompatibility. Blaming is the problem. Once Enve said "It's the tires" they were being dishonest. It's the Combination of rim and tire. That's all.
Just bad management within Enve's corporate communications department. Now they have started a fight which they will lose. A simple "This rim is not compatible with the following tires" sticker on the box would have sufficed.
I have used Vittoria Corsa open tubulars for quite a long time. Never has any problem with cut sidewalls.
Great tires, but they don't last. I use one up front only now.
Enve is smart ot issue a warning,they just issued the wrong warning. There is a compatibility issue with One Enve rim and two sorts of tires from two brands. The warning should simply identify that incompatibility. Blaming is the problem. Once Enve said "It's the tires" they were being dishonest. It's the Combination of rim and tire. That's all.
Just bad management within Enve's corporate communications department. Now they have started a fight which they will lose. A simple "This rim is not compatible with the following tires" sticker on the box would have sufficed.
I have used Vittoria Corsa open tubulars for quite a long time. Never has any problem with cut sidewalls.
Great tires, but they don't last. I use one up front only now.
