N_C

Why does such a thing even exist? First of all it is an MUP, which means it is not limited to just cyclists. Even if it was, not all cyclists have a computer & of those that do some are not very accurate. So why speed limit signs on an MUP?

On one of the MUP's in my area there is no posted limit. But there are 2 that say do not speed on trail. Again why? Unless someone has a speedometer to indicate how fast they are going & unless there is an indication of what is considered speeding why bother with these signs? Or signs with a numerical limit on them?

Is it to absolve all liability & responsibility from the Parks & Rec. Dept. who is responsible for the trails so they can not be sued? Or is it just a friendly suggestion to advise people if you feel out of control & like you're going to crash, regardless of your mode of transportation on the trail slow down so you don't have an accident? Or is it both?

Any other ideas why?

Discuss.

twahl

I doubt that not having a cyclocomputer or other speed indicating device would be an adequate excuse if you were to hit someone. The limit is in place to remind you that it is a multi-use trail, and that you shouldn't be trying to use it for TT training when there may be a kid on a Big Wheel or a mother pushing a stroller that comes into the path at any time.

If the trail is reasonably well maintained, a victim of an accident isn't going to sue parks & rec, they are going to sue the moron that was doing 30 MPH on the MUP.

Now I feel silly, having answered a silly question.

N_C

When riding on the MUP's in this area I ride at a speed that conditions allow. There are MUP's that have a lot of curves & other blind areas so it is slow & easy on those in case there is someone around one of the curves. On the MUP that is flat with no obstructions where I can see miles ahead on it I ride as fast as I can knowing I can see ahead & respond accordingly if someone else is on the MUP.

donnamb 

We don't have them on our MUPs but when I see some jerk who thinks they're in a Velodrome nearly mow down children, old people, and everything else in there path, I sometimes wish there were.

I think speed limits are for the people who don't seem to understand what "multi-use" means, though I have no idea how effective they really are.

bragi

In my area, on the few MUP's there are, in areas where there's a lot of foot traffic they have signs reminding people to slow down, which is entirely sensible. But is there really such a thing as a speed limit sign, with a numerical limit, on MUP's? Like 15 mph? I agree, that's kind of silly.

BroMax

A "don't speed" sign, whether or not there is a posted speed limit, makes sense to me. The "basic speed law" requires that you don't go faster than conditions allow, i.e. traffic, road surface, visibility, condition of your bike, condition of the rider; or no faster than a prudent person in similar circumstances would go.

A car driver can get busted for speeding even when going 45mph in a posted 60mph zone, if she's driving through heavy fog in a hailstorm and creating a hazard for herself and everyone on the road around her.

It could be there is no posted speed limit on the MUP because a speed that would be reasonable at dawn on a Monday would be dangerous on a Sunday afternoon.

Daily Commute

My MUP has posted speed limit signs of 15 mph, but they are not enforceable because bikes are only required to follow traffic laws on the roads and on paths that are exclusively reserved for bicycles (do those exist?). Since the M of MUP stands for "multi," the traffic laws don't apply.

The city's web site, by contrast, removed reference to numeric limits and just says to ride at a "safe speed." That makes more sense.

I think numeric limits are generally not that useful. On most of the path most of the time 20-25 mph is perfectly safe (especially at 6:30 on a cold weekday morning), but some times and some places, 10 mph would be way too fast.

If numeric limits are needed, they should be variable by location and time, just like on the streets. A set 15 mph limit for an entire system of paths makes as much sense as a set 25 mph limit for all roads. Speed limits are lower by schools and during school hours. They are higher other times and other places.

I find that the most important rules for cyclists on MUP's are:

• Always maintain an assured clear distance in front of you that assumes the pedestrian you are about to pass will take two steps in the wrong direction at just the wrong time;
• Use a bell to signal that you are going to pass. (This makes a HUGE difference for pedestrians. I often get thanked for ringing my bell before passing. And if your bike doesn't have a place for a bell, you have no business on an MUP);
• Stay single file.

slagjumper

If I hit a kid or dog on leash going the speed limit or less, and I was not doing anything unreasonably irresponsible, am I off the hook for a lawsuit? Probably not. Still would have to defend myself in court. Too bad more people dont have insurance, then they would not have to sue to just to fix their broken bones.

nova

Actually if you hit a dog leash you wont be the one defending your self the dogs owner will be. Every park around me has a 6 foot or shorter leash rule. this also does not allow for these fancy dog killer extenda leash leash deals with the 16 25 or even 30 foot leash in a handle.

They call them dog killers for a good reason many dogs have been killed when a inept owner who shops at walmart buys one and has it crossing a entire parking lot or road and a car catches the leash. Ive heard stories from various pet shops about dogs haveing their heads ripped off do to these leashes. One owner had her arm nearly ripped ff and her dog was killed.

This is why no reputable pet store will sell the things.


My bet is i you check your local park and mup rules they specifically state how long a dog leash may be do to the above.

-=(8)=-

"Any other ideas why?

Discuss."

I couldnt begin to offer an opinion on the last paragraph of the
OP because my opinion of MUP's are that they are for amatuer,
part time recreationalists.....I cannot imagine why a bicycle
rider would want to mix it up with the people that are native to
them.

N_C

Does this mean you can not purchase one of the extended leashes in your area? Or you just can not have it extended out that far when walking your dog? I have one for my dog & love it. However when we are walking on the MUP I never have it out more then 6 to 8 feet. When walking on the sidewalks in my neighborhood I have it extended all the way out, but retract it when there it other traffic on the sidewalk, then let it back out. Even so I do not have it exended all the way out. If I did she could walk off the curb into the street, I have it just short enough to prevent that. My dog would rather I take her to the off leash dog park though. She loves it out there. She's made a lot of great friends since I have been taking her, so have I.

cat4ever

That's the first negative thing I've ever read about these leashes. I have one for my dog. Never had any issues, but then again, I don't go toting him around in any parking lots. Maybe I'm just inept. Right.

chipcom 

I believe it's another instance of blaming the tool for the stupidity of the person using it.

BroMax

It's the first I've heard of the dog being killed by the use of one of those leashes but I read a newspaper story some time back about people losing a finger from cheap leashes that have a very narrow strap when the dog suddenly lurches. Maybe snopes.com has something to say about it.

Da Tinker

+1

supcom

Whether you are liable for damages would depend on the exact circumstances of the incident. However, you can be held liable for damages even if you are riding within a posted speed limit.

Even if another person has insurance, you can be be held liable to pay for any damage you cause.

patc

We have "Max 20km/hr" signs posted on the NCC pathways. While not legally enforceable (i.e. getting a ticket), they do serve as a disclaimer of liability on the part of the NCC. Basically, this means they consider the pathway safe to use up to 20kn/hr, if you go faster than that you are exceeding the design specs and, if you have an accident, would have a hard time nailing the NCC for damages.

Beyond that its pretty much just a suggestion.

vtjim

+1

I think it depends on congestion. The MUP I ride to work, which is largely empty during the times I ride it, is mostly straight (rail trail) and I'd ignore speed limits, were it to have any. I ride a reasonable and prudent speed, slowing down when necessary, but otherwise going however fast my grotesquely overdeveloped legs will propel me.

I've seen some big city MUPS that I'd never think of riding on, much less going fast on.

bmclaughlin807

Just on the comment on cycle computers being inaccurate, in general this is just not true.

If you use the table from Sheldon Brown's web page, your cycle computer is probably a lot MORE accrate than your car's speedometer!

Car speedometer's are required to be within 10% of actual speed, and you can't calibrate them easily if you change tires or anything, whereas on a cycle computer you can just enter a new calibration figure and you're just as accurate as before.

I know for a fact that the speedometer in my truck is off by about 20%!!!! It was calibrated for larger tires, but the guy I bought it from went cheap and put smaller tires on it, and didn't take it in to have it recalibrated.

I regularly pass roadies on the MUP I ride on who are going 20-25mph (or more!), tucked down, with aero bars. I certainly wouldn't feel safe riding in those areas at that speed!

Keith99

Can you say urban legend?

I'll only point out the most obvious. The handles for these are part of the retractor housing. You can not put your hand through them like you can with a normal short leash. Thus you can only hold one of these, not loop it to lock your hand in. This means for the human involved the connection is limited to their griping strength. No way to lose an arm.

And just how do you define a reputable pet store? I've never seen any pet store that does not stock them.

jimmuter

Our MUP's simply state "Wheels Yield to Heels". I'm not sure what category roller bladers are in. I've had them pass me, but then again, I'm not very speedy.

marqueemoon

I'm sure it's mainly for liability reasons, but here in Seattle some municipalities hand out tickets. No joke. Around Lake Forest park there have been plainclothes cops handing out tickets for running stop signs the city placed in front of private driveways.

In my opinion if you want to really haul you should not be riding on a MUP anyway though.

Hawkear

They are there so you can blow your horn at people going too slow in your direction or too fast towards you.

remsav

They should put those warning radar with the sign and maybe put a camera that activates when it goes over the limit to enforce the law on the MUP.

silversmith

Too bad everyone doesn't have insurance.