Sedgemop 

May take less time than to read Atlas Shrugged, though.

repechage

prob 27" wheels and heavy tires, Brooks saddle...

georges1

I don't think so, what is classic, collectible and part of history remains classic, collectible and part of history. The Domane is just another +5000$ plastic bike that in case of frame breaking or cracking is good to throw in the dustbin (very few people repair carbon bikes, the only worthy and bullet proof trek frames are the first generation OCLVs, the rest I beg to differ), the paramount steel frames whether 531,753 and 853 can always be repaired and are very enjoyable to ride and comfortable. I haven't mention DI2 which can be a serious problem if the battery is low or dead, so how do you shift if the shifters aren't responding ??? The mechanical derailleur with a cable avoids those problems. You can always make a weight weenie with a high end vintage steel frame if you buy the right components.

georges1

I had the same experience when I rented as Specialized Tarmac SL in 2014 and Domane in 2015, I had the impression to ride on a hardened piece of wood. They both lacked the comfort and the liveliness of my30 years old Peugeot Prestige. The both carbon bikes were more fatiguing me when riding than relaxing me. Like you,I am more a steel frame person.

georges1

That is true.Schwinn even made 50thanniversary Paramount made of Reynolds 853, real collector piece and yes back in the old days of racing there was not so much assistance and no electronic derailleurs.

billytwosheds 

Ya'll, they (AS) came here to get attention, and attention is what they got. An apples to oranges comparison is just what this flavor of troll is looking for. A chance to rile up some well-meaning folks by forcing some dichotomy or some search for the "best," which AS must be the master of. Everyone else just be fools.

No question in my mind which of the two bikes I'd prefer to give a go, of course.

georges1

Superior performance according to whom and what riding characteristics ? You ? Bike magazine reviewers ? You are aware than some very high end steel frames could rival with carbon frames and even beat them in terms of riding comfort and nervosity that was and is the case of the Bianchi Mega Pro Boron, Colnago Master X Light, Fausto Coppi Legano, Pinarello Stelvio, Tomasinni Tecno Extra, Vetta Strada, Somec Top Class and some others I may have forgotten. Carbon bikes are plastic bikes, light yes but with no soul and good luck in case of crash for repairing them.

georges1

Perhaps people who aren't interested in plastic bikes and who want a real comfy ride will take a columbus neuron or genius or a deda zero or a reynolds 531 pro or 753 framed bike rather than a plastic bike. My daily commuter for ridingin town is a steel1992 Peugeot Chenonceaux that rides well. During my two last trail rides of +70 miles from some years ago, I was the only one riding a steel MTB with 26inch wheels (1st time the scapin, the2nd time the kona) whereas everyone else was riding either carbon or aluminium bikes with 27.5 and 29 wheels, yet I was much faster than them.With properly upgraded drivetrain and brakes a vintage bike can be used in a serious ride or a multiday event.

RiddleOfSteel

My '89 OS Paramount with 6400-era Shimano 600, 14 gauge spokes, and no weight weenie pretensions comes in at 22.75 lbs with Paramount bottle cages and Shimano 105 SPD-SL aluminum pedals. So your ~24 lbs comment makes sense (even if a touch heavy, IMO), especially for a non-OS tubed frameset. Though if it rides well, that's the important metric.

Regarding the Domane vs Paramount comparison, hydraulic disc brake componentry tends to add about 1kg / 2.2 lbs over a comparative rim brake setup. Lower end carbon layups weigh more, as do less-than-Dura-Ace components. @imabeliever1 , you'll have to let us know what the spec on that Madone was. A top-spec Dura-Ace-equipped Madone, with its considerable tire clearance (beefier/lengthier frame required = more weight), is 16.0 lbs according to Trek, so they can be made light (for a LOT of money). The one you weighed must have been a lower-spec 105 bike (still 20.0 lbs according to Trek, for a 56cm). Just sleuthing here. I know it's a bit apples to oranges squared but this is what we're working with. In general, mid-grade hydraulic disc brake performance bikes are surprisingly uninspiring in the weight department with regard to their cost and in comparison to top-end rim brake bikes both current and not too old (~10 years) that often cost the same or considerably less and are very light.

Obviously the intended use of a bike drives one to buy and ride one over the other, and I think we all know this. The Domane is an extremely capable and versatile bike, and will perform well on an open road, in the rain, or a super busy/sketchy city. Easily. That Paramount will love the open road, be varying degrees of satisfactory in the rain, and a bit inconvenienced in a cut-and-thrust modern city environment. [The world speeds up everywhere and cares not for yesterday's tech, vehicle speed, or sensibilities, unfortunately) I disliked running friction shift and indifferent single pivot brakes in downtown Seattle due to traffic and topography. Any modern brifter bike was a ton easier and conversely, safer as it gave me more margin between me and an unplanned trip over my bars thanks to a car etc. I'm out of the city now, so assuming a '66 Paramount fits me well, that'd be a sweet ride. I'm more of a Madone/Emonda (rim brake!) guy for the modern stuff, so I wouldn't be saying no to them either.

Chuck M 

I agree with this as well. And my favorite part of BF is the C&V sub-forum.

I have an aluminum Domane and there are often times that I wish I would have spent the extra cash to get a lighter CF bike. And if I had more money than brains, I would probably be shopping for a new bike every few years and I'd want the bells and whistles that come with it. But right now my good sense to money balance is tilted towards throwing money at a '54 Hercules that will be worth a fraction of what I've already spent on it. Even though every nut bolt and screw I remove from it reminds me what a foolish endeavor it is, I know my grandson will probably be the one to hold on to it for possibly another 68 years so it is worth it in a way.

Are my bike boom bikes and Hercules as cool as a good many of the C&V bikes I enjoy looking at here and would love to have myself? No. But they are IMHO quite lovely to look at and ride and for the most part, C&V members on BF are understanding as to why I enjoy them.

Trakhak

I've owned many classic top-of-the-line steel bikes since the mid-1960s. Helyett 531 track bike, Tokyo Olympics Cino Cinelli-designed Raleigh Professional, Atala Record Professional, Bianchi Specialissima, etc.

In my case, though, unlike all but a very few here, I was riding those bikes when they were new or nearly new. I loved them all.

I haven't ridden any of the few of those steel bikes that I still own in many years, though. The aluminum bikes I ride now aren't night-and-day better than those steel bikes were. I just like the way they feel to ride a bit better.

My steel bikes were state of the art back then. My aluminum bikes are (to me) state of the art now. Nothing to get riled up over.

Threads like this are puzzling. The C&V section has become far more vicious than it was only 10 years ago (let alone compared to how it was when I started reading it in the first years after Joe G started BikeForums). Worse than the Road subforum, self-congratulatory claims here to the contrary. Why is that? What happened? They're all just bikes.

Wileyone 

Schwinn used lead as their brazing material.

georges1

Perhaps and probably because there is a possible disdain from carbon framed bike owners towards classic high end steel lugged frame/filet brazed bike owners. We can ask the question does the 5000$ plus carbon frame is really hand made in the USA ?or is it subcontracted in Taiwan ? A high end steel frame is pure art and that is the same with some high end aluminium and titanium frames carefully crafted. I do like carbon frames such as the giant cadex, conalgo c35, c40 as well as the trek oclv 5500, Look KG396, Look KG361, Look KG 196, Look KG486 alongwithTime Carbon frames.Yet, I don't consider them better than any high end or very high steel/aluminium/titanium frame for many reasons, let me list them:
-welding or brazing a high end steel/aluminium/titanium frame requires material knowledge and skills
-steel like titanium have proven strong durability over decades
-steel like titanium proved to be more comfortable than carbon
-repairability is clear the steel, aluminium and titanium frame can always be repaired,the carbon frame very hardly.
If you want to add the electronic shifting argument, then the counter argument is what do you do when your battery is low or dead and that you can't change of gear .A cable shifting never breaks down.
The disc brake argument is another one very easy to refute, take a nice pair of shimano dura ace 7800/7900/9000/9100 or ultegra 6600/6700/6800/8000 calipers that can work better than disc brakes when perfectly adjusted, the disc brakes can present risk of injury.
Also as my old friend Chuck Maddox used to say "Old tech that works is good tech".Technology is nice when it is absolutely and flawlessly reliable over the long run,when it is finicky or capricious over the short term,it is not that great but just a waste of money.

smd4

Likewise, the Paramount will likely be around for generations. The Trek, like most used lawn furniture, will be trashed or discarded.

You're gonna give your Garmin away because in 10 years it won't be functioning (and you know this).

bikemig 

I don't know if C&V has gotten more "vicious." I think we have a few posters who are pushing the envelope but that's easy to ignore.

L134 

And, how he does do - "That said as I repeat ad nauseam..."

ClydeClydeson

I'd take that bet. Lightweight vintage steel frames are absolutely more fragile than well built modern CF. Frame failures were very common in the days of lightweight steel. An impact that would tie a light vintage steel frame in a knot would likely not phase a good modern CF bike. Steel alloys available from the 90s onward make bikes stronger than their vintage ancestors, but old ones are comparatively feeble.

georges1

Columbus Max, Nemo, Foco,Ultra Foco,Genius, Neuron and EL, Reynolds 631,853,953 and725 as well as the Dedacciai DR Zero and DR Zero Uno have present been since 90's. Depends which steels you are talking about, I have never heard about a 531 competition or professional , a 753 or an Excell ul os frame failing as well. I am interested what series of tubes are supposedly fragile. With a carbon frame (used or new) when you crash, you crash ,no repairs possible and you throw the frame in the dustbin. Steel is repairable, carbon isn't.

mstateglfr 

What does this mean? Why should the Domane weigh less than 10#?

smd4

You'd lose that bet.

I know, I know, someone can post the occasional photo of a Kestrel 4000...But there aren't too many. Wonder why?

And in 57 years, I wonder how well that Di2 will be functioning? I'm guessing not. At all.

sloar 

New carbon bikes are fine for what they were designed for. But I don’t have a big smile on my face when I’m riding it. My Paramount does though, I’ll take that over any new bike.

georges1

The DI2 software upgrade won't be available by this time and good luck if you are stuck with a low battery or have not upgraded os on the dura ace shifters, no posibility to shift.The cable will always work.Carbon probably doesn't age that well unlike steel.

georges1

Me too and it looks nicer, the lugs on it are excquisite

Hondo6

Not really. Some of the comments above are fairly close to being equivalent to walking into a C&W bar and shouting out during a lull in the music, "Country music SUCKS - blues/jazz/hard rock/rap (pick any of these) is WAY better!"

If someone does that, it shouldn't be a surprise when some regulars at the bar take offense and yell back.

Anyone can ride whatever they like; I've got no problem with that. I'll do the same.

Just don't tell me what I'm riding is junk - and that your bike is way better - if our paths cross while riding. I'll extend the same courtesy.

smd4

Rechargeable batteries last between 2 to 5 years. I doubt suitable replacement batteries will even be available in 57 years. Not that I think the electronics will go beyond 10.