Buy Without a Test Ride?
08-20-20, 05:54 AM
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This article confirms my belief...Bicycling.com
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08-20-20, 06:10 AM
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Do you know your fit needs?
Without much road bike riding experience, it is likely you will adapt to whatever bike you buy, so I think the choice of which one you pick is more an issue of budget and needs. But if the bike doesn't fit right, it will never be comfortable. If you are confident in what size and fit you need, then buying without test riding is fine.
Without much road bike riding experience, it is likely you will adapt to whatever bike you buy, so I think the choice of which one you pick is more an issue of budget and needs. But if the bike doesn't fit right, it will never be comfortable. If you are confident in what size and fit you need, then buying without test riding is fine.
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08-20-20, 06:45 AM
#28
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Do you know your fit needs?
Without much road bike riding experience, it is likely you will adapt to whatever bike you buy, so I think the choice of which one you pick is more an issue of budget and needs. But if the bike doesn't fit right, it will never be comfortable. If you are confident in what size and fit you need, then buying without test riding is fine.
Without much road bike riding experience, it is likely you will adapt to whatever bike you buy, so I think the choice of which one you pick is more an issue of budget and needs. But if the bike doesn't fit right, it will never be comfortable. If you are confident in what size and fit you need, then buying without test riding is fine.
I agree, I will probably adapt to whatever I get and whatever I get will be light years better than anything I have ever ridden before. I am shopping in the $2,500 to $3,500 range. Low end of carbon frames with Shimano 105 or equivalent components. I found a deal on a new 2021 Roubaix with the Ultegra components for $3,300 (down from $3,600). Tempted to pop on that since everything I am looking at will have pluses and minuses and I would not be able to sort it all out without putting hundreds of miles on each bike.
OTOH, I am so green that I may be way off in what I want and maybe I should log a few hundred more miles before making a choice.
And make sure that this does not turn into a passing fancy. But maybe spending a few thousand on a bike will give me the motivation to keep up with the riding.
08-20-20, 07:14 AM
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Spending upwards of three grand on a bike you might not ride is a really good idea. The rest of us love it, because in two years you will sell the unused bike for a third of the sale price and one of us will ride it into the ground over the next 15 years.
When you mentioned buying a cheaper bike first .... i might usually disagree, because even a decent entry-level bike is going to cost a grand and for two you can get a really nice bike .... but you are looking to go higher-end, so ....
I guess what I would suggest is this:
First, compare the geometries of all the bikes you are considering. Likely they are all pretty close, but check to see.
Then, rent one for a weekend. Any one will do so long as it has about the same geometry as the rest. This will give you the info you need about best fit.
After a few decent rides, you should know if you might want a little more stack or reach, or less reach or stack, with a longer or steeper stem, or whether you can get the seat far enough forward or back----if you have average proportions, as you say, all this should be pretty easy to figure.
Once you know the frame size that works best for you, Any bike with the same geometry will fit about the same---within the degree of adjustment you'd get with a stem swap and some saddle/seatpost adjustments. As a rule, buy smaller rather than larger if you are in between, (again a personal preference, not a proven practice---but it is a lot easier to get a longer stem than to saw half an inch out of a top tube.
)
Sure, each bike will have minor differences, but if the geometries are the same the differences really will be minor. Wheels and tires will affect ride, but those can change. The frames .... except for the frames with built-in shock absorbers, all of them are going to be about the same, for a given price point and a given material.
All you Really need to do is be sure of the best frame size for you---the one which can be tailored to your precise needs with the least extreme adjustments (no 140 mm or 70 mm stems, for instance.)
My own experience (again ... I am all about the "Me" ) is that buying an expensive bike is no better motivator than buying a cheap bike. The guilt might be a little greater, but not for long. If you don't feel like a road ride, having a great road bike is like having a great pizza when you have already overeaten---it has no particular appeal and might even be unpleasant to contemplate.
If you aren't sure about road-riding, but you Are bike-experienced .....
Then You, sir or madam, are the perfect candidate to buy something used.
I don't recommend used bikes to beginners because you could buy something which has been badly abused and is about to die ... but since you know your way around bikes, you should be able to pick up a decent old road bike for a couple hundred dollars.
No, it won't necessarily be the disc-equipped endurance geometry bike you are contemplating ... but you should be able to find Something which will be good on the roads for not too much money---new cables, tubes, and tires, and get out and thrash on the pavement. Find out if you really do like road-riding for a few hundred bucks instead of a thousand, and you will always have the old beater as a rain bike or a loaner or a back-up if the good bike is in the shop (assuming you ever buy the good road bike.)
Again, I would never recommend this to a beginner---but you should be able to tell if you are getting a bike you can ride with pleasure for a little money, or are getting robbed. And all you need is a bike which works reliably on the road---light or heavy, pretty or ugly, older or newer don't matter. it is just something you could enjoyable ride on pavement to see if you actually do enjoy more frequent pavement rides.
Just another option .......
When you mentioned buying a cheaper bike first .... i might usually disagree, because even a decent entry-level bike is going to cost a grand and for two you can get a really nice bike .... but you are looking to go higher-end, so ....
I guess what I would suggest is this:
First, compare the geometries of all the bikes you are considering. Likely they are all pretty close, but check to see.
Then, rent one for a weekend. Any one will do so long as it has about the same geometry as the rest. This will give you the info you need about best fit.
After a few decent rides, you should know if you might want a little more stack or reach, or less reach or stack, with a longer or steeper stem, or whether you can get the seat far enough forward or back----if you have average proportions, as you say, all this should be pretty easy to figure.
Once you know the frame size that works best for you, Any bike with the same geometry will fit about the same---within the degree of adjustment you'd get with a stem swap and some saddle/seatpost adjustments. As a rule, buy smaller rather than larger if you are in between, (again a personal preference, not a proven practice---but it is a lot easier to get a longer stem than to saw half an inch out of a top tube.
)Sure, each bike will have minor differences, but if the geometries are the same the differences really will be minor. Wheels and tires will affect ride, but those can change. The frames .... except for the frames with built-in shock absorbers, all of them are going to be about the same, for a given price point and a given material.
All you Really need to do is be sure of the best frame size for you---the one which can be tailored to your precise needs with the least extreme adjustments (no 140 mm or 70 mm stems, for instance.)
My own experience (again ... I am all about the "Me"
) is that buying an expensive bike is no better motivator than buying a cheap bike. The guilt might be a little greater, but not for long. If you don't feel like a road ride, having a great road bike is like having a great pizza when you have already overeaten---it has no particular appeal and might even be unpleasant to contemplate.If you aren't sure about road-riding, but you Are bike-experienced .....
Then You, sir or madam, are the perfect candidate to buy something used.
I don't recommend used bikes to beginners because you could buy something which has been badly abused and is about to die ... but since you know your way around bikes, you should be able to pick up a decent old road bike for a couple hundred dollars.
No, it won't necessarily be the disc-equipped endurance geometry bike you are contemplating ... but you should be able to find Something which will be good on the roads for not too much money---new cables, tubes, and tires, and get out and thrash on the pavement. Find out if you really do like road-riding for a few hundred bucks instead of a thousand, and you will always have the old beater as a rain bike or a loaner or a back-up if the good bike is in the shop (assuming you ever buy the good road bike.)
Again, I would never recommend this to a beginner---but you should be able to tell if you are getting a bike you can ride with pleasure for a little money, or are getting robbed. And all you need is a bike which works reliably on the road---light or heavy, pretty or ugly, older or newer don't matter. it is just something you could enjoyable ride on pavement to see if you actually do enjoy more frequent pavement rides.
Just another option .......
Last edited by Maelochs; 08-20-20 at 07:19 AM.
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08-20-20, 07:20 AM
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Spending upwards of three grand on a bike you might not ride is a really good idea. The rest of us love it, because in two years you will sell the unused bike for a third of the sale price and one of us will ride it into the ground over the next 15 years.
When you mentioned buying a cheaper bike first .... i might usually disagree, because even a decent entry-level bike is going to cost a grand and for two you can get a really nice bike .... but you are looking to go higher-end, so ....
I guess what I would suggest is this:
First, compare the geometries of all the bikes you are considering. Likely they are all pretty close, but check to see.
Then, rent one for a weekend. Any one will do so long as it has about the same geometry as the rest. This will give you the info you need about best fit.
After a few decent rides, you should know if you might want a little more stack or reach, or less reach or stack, with a longer or steeper stem, or whether you can get the seat far enough forward or back----if you have average proportions, as you say, all this should be pretty easy to figure.
Once you know the frame size that works best for you, Any bike with the same geometry will fit about the same---within the degree of adjustment you'd get with a stem swap and some saddle/seatpost adjustments. As a rule, buy smaller rather than larger if you are in between, (again a personal preference, not a proven practice---but it is a lot easier to get a longer stem than to saw half an inch out of a top tube. )
Sure, each bike will have minor differences, but if the geometries are the same the differences really will be minor. Wheels and tires will affect ride, but those can change. The frames .... except for the frames with built-in shock absorbers, all of them are going to be about the same, for a given price point and a given material.
All you Really need to do is be sure of the best frame size for you---the one which can be tailored to your precise needs with the least extreme adjustments (no 140 mm or 70 mm stems, for instance.)
My own experience (again ... I am all about the "Me" ) is that buying an expensive bike is no better motivator than buying a cheap bike. The guilt might be a little greater, but not for long. If you don't feel like a road ride, having a great road bike is like having a great pizza when you have already overeaten---it has no particular appeal and might even be unpleasant to contemplate.
If you aren't sure about road-riding, but you Are bike-experienced .....
Then You, sir or madam, are the perfect candidate to buy something used.
I don't recommend used bikes to beginners because you could buy something which has been badly abused and is about to die ... but since you know your way around bikes, you should be able to pick up a decent old road bike for a couple hundred dollars.
No, it won't necessarily be the disc-equipped endurance geometry bike you are contemplating ... but you should be able to find Something which will be good on the roads for not too much money---new cables, tubes, and tires, and get out and thrash on the pavement. Find out if you really do like road-riding for a few hundred bucks instead of a thousand, and you will always have the old beater as a rain bike or a loaner or a back-up if the good bike is in the shop (assuming you ever buy the good road bike.)
Again, I would never recommend this to a beginner---but you should be able to tell if you are getting a bike you can ride with pleasure for a little money, or are getting robbed. And all you need is a bike which works reliably on the road---light or heavy, pretty or ugly, older or newer don't matter. it is just something you could enjoyable ride on pavement to see if you actually do enjoy more frequent pavement rides.
Just another option .......
When you mentioned buying a cheaper bike first .... i might usually disagree, because even a decent entry-level bike is going to cost a grand and for two you can get a really nice bike .... but you are looking to go higher-end, so ....
I guess what I would suggest is this:
First, compare the geometries of all the bikes you are considering. Likely they are all pretty close, but check to see.
Then, rent one for a weekend. Any one will do so long as it has about the same geometry as the rest. This will give you the info you need about best fit.
After a few decent rides, you should know if you might want a little more stack or reach, or less reach or stack, with a longer or steeper stem, or whether you can get the seat far enough forward or back----if you have average proportions, as you say, all this should be pretty easy to figure.
Once you know the frame size that works best for you, Any bike with the same geometry will fit about the same---within the degree of adjustment you'd get with a stem swap and some saddle/seatpost adjustments. As a rule, buy smaller rather than larger if you are in between, (again a personal preference, not a proven practice---but it is a lot easier to get a longer stem than to saw half an inch out of a top tube.
)Sure, each bike will have minor differences, but if the geometries are the same the differences really will be minor. Wheels and tires will affect ride, but those can change. The frames .... except for the frames with built-in shock absorbers, all of them are going to be about the same, for a given price point and a given material.
All you Really need to do is be sure of the best frame size for you---the one which can be tailored to your precise needs with the least extreme adjustments (no 140 mm or 70 mm stems, for instance.)
My own experience (again ... I am all about the "Me"
) is that buying an expensive bike is no better motivator than buying a cheap bike. The guilt might be a little greater, but not for long. If you don't feel like a road ride, having a great road bike is like having a great pizza when you have already overeaten---it has no particular appeal and might even be unpleasant to contemplate.If you aren't sure about road-riding, but you Are bike-experienced .....
Then You, sir or madam, are the perfect candidate to buy something used.
I don't recommend used bikes to beginners because you could buy something which has been badly abused and is about to die ... but since you know your way around bikes, you should be able to pick up a decent old road bike for a couple hundred dollars.
No, it won't necessarily be the disc-equipped endurance geometry bike you are contemplating ... but you should be able to find Something which will be good on the roads for not too much money---new cables, tubes, and tires, and get out and thrash on the pavement. Find out if you really do like road-riding for a few hundred bucks instead of a thousand, and you will always have the old beater as a rain bike or a loaner or a back-up if the good bike is in the shop (assuming you ever buy the good road bike.)
Again, I would never recommend this to a beginner---but you should be able to tell if you are getting a bike you can ride with pleasure for a little money, or are getting robbed. And all you need is a bike which works reliably on the road---light or heavy, pretty or ugly, older or newer don't matter. it is just something you could enjoyable ride on pavement to see if you actually do enjoy more frequent pavement rides.
Just another option .......
08-20-20, 07:28 AM
#31
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I like the concept of an extended test ride. Buy it and if you don't like it sell it. Like someone said much less financial risk with a used bike, new bikes can take quite a hit the first few years, especially carbon bikes due to the perceived risk (real or not) of potential damage or abuse.
I bought a used high end full suspension bike and rode that for 6 months before it tried to kill me. Sold it at a $400 loss but still considered it a worthwhile experience
From what you have said I think you will be pretty safe buying the bike you are looking at. You are pretty sure on your size, you have a good idea what class of bike you want and I would guess you aren't skipping a mortgage payment to get it. Bikes don't deviate much from that point.
Try buying a recumbent if you have never ridden one before. Test rides are absolutely useless on a bike you don't know how to ride. I did what you are doing and leaned heavily on what others felt was a good first time bike. My extended test ride turned into a permanent addition to my fleet.
I bought a used high end full suspension bike and rode that for 6 months before it tried to kill me. Sold it at a $400 loss but still considered it a worthwhile experience
From what you have said I think you will be pretty safe buying the bike you are looking at. You are pretty sure on your size, you have a good idea what class of bike you want and I would guess you aren't skipping a mortgage payment to get it. Bikes don't deviate much from that point.
Try buying a recumbent if you have never ridden one before. Test rides are absolutely useless on a bike you don't know how to ride. I did what you are doing and leaned heavily on what others felt was a good first time bike. My extended test ride turned into a permanent addition to my fleet.
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08-20-20, 07:30 AM
#32
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I agree that they could do a better job communicating their bike return policy, but they allow (and encourage) riding the bike. I see it as a 30 day test ride.
This article confirms my belief...Bicycling.com
This article confirms my belief...Bicycling.com
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08-20-20, 07:32 AM
#33
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No test ride can tell you how the bike will feel to you after 3 months riding because if you're riding it a lot, your body will change somewhat in ways that are difficult to predict--we really won't know what you'll want in a bike at that point.
The purpose of a test ride, as I see it, is elimination. If the bike feels horrible to you right off the bat, don't purchase it thinking you'll adapt to it because you'll probably never ride the thing enough for that to happen.
I'm going to be honest, I think it would be a bit nuts to sink a few thousand dollars in a type of bike you've never ridden at all before. Is that the case here? I'd actually be more worried about having absolutely no experience with the type of bike than with the specific model since a fitter has already checked out the dimensions for you. Is there anywhere in your area where you could rent a bike for a day just to see how it feels?
ETA: I should've scrolled down a bit before I posted. What Maelochs said.
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08-20-20, 07:42 AM
#34
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It's always interesting to see someone who is an experienced flat bar rider suddenly try their first drop bar bike. I've seen enough "hell no" reactions to say someone should definitely try a few hours on a drop bar of any kind before even buying a used bike of the type.
08-20-20, 08:14 AM
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There has been some great advice here and IMO Maelochs has hit the nail on the head in your case.
Since you are an experienced Cyclist and don't currently own a Road Bike.....I think you should get one if you're true to yourself and know you will ride it. It's never a bad thing to have several bike in your stable(anyway).
I would put a budget aside and stick to it. IIRC.... you mentioned buying a "low end" Carbon frame bike(?) I personally wouldn't but rather put the same $$ into a "higher end" aluminum (or better yet) a "steel" framed bike. You may even save a few $$ go this route...but probably not lol.
What I'm trying to say is (for the same $$) I would rather buy a "higher end" vs a "lower end" and go get your new bike!
Since you are an experienced Cyclist and don't currently own a Road Bike.....I think you should get one if you're true to yourself and know you will ride it. It's never a bad thing to have several bike in your stable(anyway
).I would put a budget aside and stick to it. IIRC.... you mentioned buying a "low end" Carbon frame bike(?) I personally wouldn't but rather put the same $$ into a "higher end" aluminum (or better yet) a "steel" framed bike. You may even save a few $$ go this route...but probably not lol.
What I'm trying to say is (for the same $$) I would rather buy a "higher end" vs a "lower end" and go get your new bike!
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08-20-20, 08:41 AM
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OP, the question you are asking about whether you will be more inclined to ride if you spend a few grand on it is a fair one. I remember going through that same process when I bought my first road bike 15 years ago, and questioned whether to go cheap or higher end.
My question for you is: How much do you currently ride your MTB and hybrid? The point is, are you already a cyclist and looking to a different discipline, or are you someone who has a couple bikes and thinks it would be neat to try road biking?
For me, I was already riding my MTB a lot, and I wanted to try road riding, so I was a cyclist looking to try a new discipline. I ended up with a Cannondale Six-13 with Ultegra, which at the time was the second from the top model offered by Cannondale. The DuraAce version was the absolute top of the line model.
My question for you is: How much do you currently ride your MTB and hybrid? The point is, are you already a cyclist and looking to a different discipline, or are you someone who has a couple bikes and thinks it would be neat to try road biking?
For me, I was already riding my MTB a lot, and I wanted to try road riding, so I was a cyclist looking to try a new discipline. I ended up with a Cannondale Six-13 with Ultegra, which at the time was the second from the top model offered by Cannondale. The DuraAce version was the absolute top of the line model.
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08-20-20, 09:08 AM
#37
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OP, the question you are asking about whether you will be more inclined to ride if you spend a few grand on it is a fair one. I remember going through that same process when I bought my first road bike 15 years ago, and questioned whether to go cheap or higher end.
My question for you is: How much do you currently ride your MTB and hybrid? The point is, are you already a cyclist and looking to a different discipline, or are you someone who has a couple bikes and thinks it would be neat to try road biking?
For me, I was already riding my MTB a lot, and I wanted to try road riding, so I was a cyclist looking to try a new discipline. I ended up with a Cannondale Six-13 with Ultegra, which at the time was the second from the top model offered by Cannondale. The DuraAce version was the absolute top of the line model.
My question for you is: How much do you currently ride your MTB and hybrid? The point is, are you already a cyclist and looking to a different discipline, or are you someone who has a couple bikes and thinks it would be neat to try road biking?
For me, I was already riding my MTB a lot, and I wanted to try road riding, so I was a cyclist looking to try a new discipline. I ended up with a Cannondale Six-13 with Ultegra, which at the time was the second from the top model offered by Cannondale. The DuraAce version was the absolute top of the line model.
Most of my recent riding has been on a Trek Verve 3.0 and it works fine. My main goal for a new bike is to treat myself to something nice since I have been a good boy and I deserve a treat. Secondly, I think a lighter, newer more road oriented bike might allow me to hang with some group rides. I have mostly ridden alone or with a few friends. I have not done much group riding.
There is a kid with down syndrome in the neighborhood who is training for an Iron Man. There are a lot of people who come over on the weekend to train with him. I keep up for 15 miles or so and then fade. Mostly that is me and I have improved a lot over the past month. I think a bike more suited to that kind of riding would help a little.
I am liking the idea of a used steel or aluminum frame bike for $500 to $800. Put some miles on it and learn. Such a bike might not be any faster than my hybrid. But I think it would help me get a feel for whether I like that style of riding.
08-20-20, 09:12 AM
#38
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I have been shopping around, reading and researching. Focused on gravel and endurance bikes. Mostly looking at Roubaix, Diverge, Domane and Checkpoint. I think I would like any of them. All would be very different from my MTB and hybrid. I could test ride them all and still not know which is best for me.
I found a good deal on a Roubaix and it is the one I am currently leaning towards. Thinking of pulling the trigger and skipping the test riding.
Bad idea?
I found a good deal on a Roubaix and it is the one I am currently leaning towards. Thinking of pulling the trigger and skipping the test riding.
Bad idea?
Last edited by Phil_gretz; 08-20-20 at 09:16 AM.
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08-20-20, 09:24 AM
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Most bikes that I buy are used frames and I put gear on them, no test rides for days after I get the bike. I know my size range.
The last couple of times that I took a test ride, they did nothing for me except to see if the bike was a close enough fit to my size.
I got a hybrid for riding some MUPs and I found out after a couple of long rides that I don't like that style of bike. I don't like riding it for more than an hour. For me, a road bike with a bit wider tires is all I want. (I guess that's a gravel bike)
First, do you know if you will like a road bike? If you can try someone's bike or rent one out for a long ride, 2-3 hours. Then think about it for a few days and then try it again. Not everyone likes a road bike.
I had a friend that thought that she wanted a road bike and it turns out that after a 20 mile ride on my daughter's bike ( and it was a good fit) that she didn't like it at all. She likes her comfort bike.
Second, know your size. How did you determine your road bike size? The bike for long ride above should be fitted before you took it out.
The last couple of times that I took a test ride, they did nothing for me except to see if the bike was a close enough fit to my size.
I got a hybrid for riding some MUPs and I found out after a couple of long rides that I don't like that style of bike. I don't like riding it for more than an hour. For me, a road bike with a bit wider tires is all I want. (I guess that's a gravel bike)
First, do you know if you will like a road bike? If you can try someone's bike or rent one out for a long ride, 2-3 hours. Then think about it for a few days and then try it again. Not everyone likes a road bike.
I had a friend that thought that she wanted a road bike and it turns out that after a 20 mile ride on my daughter's bike ( and it was a good fit) that she didn't like it at all. She likes her comfort bike.
Second, know your size. How did you determine your road bike size? The bike for long ride above should be fitted before you took it out.
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08-20-20, 09:34 AM
#40
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I have been consulting with a bike fitter. He has stated that I should be pretty safe on a 56 cm frame in the Roubaix. I am very average in my dimensions so I am thinking that fairly standard fittings should work for me.
I agree, I will probably adapt to whatever I get and whatever I get will be light years better than anything I have ever ridden before. I am shopping in the $2,500 to $3,500 range. Low end of carbon frames with Shimano 105 or equivalent components. I found a deal on a new 2021 Roubaix with the Ultegra components for $3,300 (down from $3,600). Tempted to pop on that since everything I am looking at will have pluses and minuses and I would not be able to sort it all out without putting hundreds of miles on each bike.
OTOH, I am so green that I may be way off in what I want and maybe I should log a few hundred more miles before making a choice.
And make sure that this does not turn into a passing fancy. But maybe spending a few thousand on a bike will give me the motivation to keep up with the riding.
I agree, I will probably adapt to whatever I get and whatever I get will be light years better than anything I have ever ridden before. I am shopping in the $2,500 to $3,500 range. Low end of carbon frames with Shimano 105 or equivalent components. I found a deal on a new 2021 Roubaix with the Ultegra components for $3,300 (down from $3,600). Tempted to pop on that since everything I am looking at will have pluses and minuses and I would not be able to sort it all out without putting hundreds of miles on each bike.
OTOH, I am so green that I may be way off in what I want and maybe I should log a few hundred more miles before making a choice.
And make sure that this does not turn into a passing fancy. But maybe spending a few thousand on a bike will give me the motivation to keep up with the riding.
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08-20-20, 09:41 AM
#41
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Ridley fitting tables put me on a 53.5 cm bike.
It seems that the way bikes are measured is not consistent so X cm frame is not reliable from manufacturer to manufacturer. Also varies a lot from bike style to bike style.
I am becoming more educated. But the more I learn, the more I discover how little I understand.
Last edited by Sorg67; 08-20-20 at 09:48 AM.
08-20-20, 10:16 AM
#42
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Based on what you've posted, the 56 Roubaix sounds like a great option for you and may help you reach your goals and extend your fitness. And really $3k isn't that much for a new road bike, given how expensive things have gotten in recent years.
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08-20-20, 01:10 PM
#43
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Can I send you my wife's cell phone and get you to explain to her why this is are really sensible thing to do....
And both my friends Art and Bob like the Roubaix
And I like to speak French so saying "Roubaix" will make my day
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08-20-20, 01:37 PM
#44
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And I have a dealer who can get me a 2021 Roubaix Comp with Ultegra components, retail $3,600 for $3,300......
Can I send you my wife's cell phone and get you to explain to her why this is are really sensible thing to do....
And both my friends Art and Bob like the Roubaix
And I like to speak French so saying "Roubaix" will make my day
Can I send you my wife's cell phone and get you to explain to her why this is are really sensible thing to do....
And both my friends Art and Bob like the Roubaix
And I like to speak French so saying "Roubaix" will make my day
Something to think about.
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08-20-20, 06:37 PM
#45
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08-20-20, 06:53 PM
#46
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I am married to a tough little Jewish girl from Long Island. I am used to blunt....
