Machka 

I'm in the process of creating 400K and 600K brevet routes, and thought I'd ask what type of routes you like for your long distance rides.

Here are some choices as examples:

-- out and back

-- loop

-- spider ... that's a route which is a square or loop, with out and back legs off the main loop now and then

-- flower ... that's a route which consists of a series of different loops in different directions (the petals), all starting and ending at the same spot (the center of the flower)

-- other?


And why do you like that type of route?

supcom

I prefer loop routes because I get to see as much scenery as possible. With out-and-back you see everything twice (until it gets dark).

SlowSpinner

Loops. Could you create a fruit loop?

The Octopus 

Loop, for the same reason as supcom.

Although I liked the flower model for the 600K and the 1000K I did this year. That design permits the rider to self-support by leaving gear at the start/finish. The 600 was a 400 followed by a 200, permitting people to easily sleep at that point if they wanted to. The 1000 was 400/300/300, which everyone who finished rode like three separate rides with two sleep breaks. The problem with the flower model is that it makes it easier to DNF as it's really convenient to quit if you're right back where your car is at some point during the ride. This was a problem for some folks on this year's 600K.

The benefit of out-and-back is you get to see all the other riders at some point in the ride. This was a blast on the Last Chance. Mike S. and I really enjoyed seeing folks east-bound out of Atwood the morning of the second day as we were returning on the same route west-bound, having pretty much ridden through the night. Everyone was yelling greetings and encouragement and it really got folks pumped up. Lot of fun! Out-and-back is certainly easier for the designer, any SAG, and for the rider to navigate. It also lets you get farther out from your point of origin, which is cool. That's another down-side to the flower design -- we rode a 1000K without ever leaving southern Ohio. That's a lot of miles for going nowhere. Had it been an out-and-back, we could have gone from Columbus to Chicago. How cool is that?

Mr. Gear Jammer

I will go with the loop as well.

ken cummings

I've done three randonees. I've helped at a lot more. An out-and-back can be better for the checkpoint crews. Fewer CPs can mean relief for the crews. How about loops between each CP where possible?

SR_biker

Personally . . . (1) loops, (2) spider, (3) flower.

Sincerely,
Stefan

Shifty

I rode a century last year that was a big figure 8. It worked really well because it was two 50 mile loops joined at the start/finish/lunch stop, so at lunch you could go to your car and adjust clothing, refill personal supplies etc. The down side was that you might be tempted to bail at the halfway, so will power was required

On the longest rides you could plan a four leaf clover, 4 loops joined in the middle.

Machka 

Your four leaf clover is my flower.

TMT

see that mountain on the map over there lets go to that mountain and see whats on the other side.


lol

SR_biker

Machka 

Well, I was thinking of doing exactly that for my 600K route. It is approx. 250 kms to the Icefield Parkway from here on a beautifully wide and lightly travelled road.

However, the remoteness of that route made me think twice. I've ridden it as a tour during the day ... but if a person were to ride it during the night, a person would likely do a good 12 hours or more between services of any kind.

thebulls

Happy with either out and back or with loop. Advantage to out and back is that it's fun to see people ahead of you coming back and (if you're fast enough) people behind you still on their way out. Scenery all looks different coming back, since it's a different time of day and you're looking from a different direction. Loop does let you see more varied terrain during the ride. And since you're less sure what's coming up and how to prepare for it, that is arguably better training for a 1200 (where even if it's an out and back, by the time you're riding back you probably can't remember what the terrain was like in any detail; you may also have difficulty remembering other complicated things, like your name).

Problem with self-intersecting routes (like figure 8 or cloverleaf) is they make it too easy to quit since you're right there at your car. None of the 1200's that I know of take this form, so it's arguably less good as training for longer events.

danimal123

Agree w/ most folks that flower/clover/web routes put you too close to a bail out opportunity too many times, but a good compromise would be a figure-eight for a long route. You'd only pass the start point three times: start, midpoint and finish. This could give you a good opportunity for an easy unmanned bag drop (leave the bag in your car) or a sleep stop (your stuff would already be in your hotel room if you slept there the night before the ride start).

Seems like a good compromise and also good for long range permanents, too.

tibikefor2

+1

Machka 

Personally, I like a variety of different types of loops. However, in this case, my 400K and 600K routes will either be spiders or flowers.

My reason for that is because I will very likely (unless the moon turns blue and pigs fly) be riding them solo. I think a route where I'm never very far from home would be more comfortable and convenient. I would prefer if my "home base" were a school or something ... like on a 24-hour event ... rather than my own home, but beggers can't be choosers.

prestonjb

Depends on the distance.

Up to 400k I prefer loops.

600K I like a figure 8 with the hotel in the middle.

1200k would be better to be a clover (back to the same hotel in the center).

I'm not worried about the bail syndrome however if the weather turns really bad (like very bad lighting storms) then I'd bail or at least find cover and forget the brevet.

I prefer the figure-8/clover simply because if I want to nap, eat, change clothes or pick up a new set of batteries then I can store everything in one spot (my van) and also keep one hotel room...

TMT

I ride SW oregon from coast to the snake. there is no weather bad enough to turn me back and i get really tired of only seeing green so i tend to go in a direct line till i run out of line then turn to another line till i run out then maybe i have to teach or something and have to go home. but i usually get to see at least the beach and an alpine view on each ride. if i get really lucky i get to go from the beach to the beach...... but that takes a few days.

Machka 

That's more like a touring route than a brevet route though. I'm not really after scenery, although scenery can help a brevet go by more quickly, I'm more after stuff like the availability of services and roads that will be good 24-hours a day.

prestonjb

I think I understand your last comment...

You created this thread because you are working on a route... Thus services, how often, course type and so on is what you are after...

And though the scene is nice it is considered secondary to safe roads with good controls and possibly other amenities.

From the riders point of view (ok mine) I want all of the above and a pretty area to boot! All things being equal I'd choose a pretty 400k over a boring one...

Machka 

Yes, exactly.

And I'd probably choose a scenic 400K over a boring one too ... but scenery is a secondary factor. For me, services, good roads, etc. come first.

There are two 400K routes in my area. Both are absolutely gorgeous ... mountains, rivers, forests ... just stunning. That's nice, but there are few services along the route, and there is little to no cell phone coverage (or any phone service at all). There is also the very real threat of wild animals after dark. I've ridden both of them ........... and now I'm looking for a route that is a little less scenic, and a little more cyclist-friendly!!

TMT

understood: personally the amenities are not important. what is important is that i get a varied terrain in my ride. admittedly im not much on in town or close to town riding.
.... ghostwriter intrudes...
Understood. For me, the amenities are not that important: for one thing, there's no way to get reliable, quality food or drink on any route near my hometown. I'm already in the habit of making my own drink mix, snacks, etc. I'll stop at a gas station if I'm out of water, but I can't count on them having anything else that I want. Likewise, I hate riding up to the one hot-dog stand on a 100+ mile ride and seeing their lights go out when I'm five minutes down the road. There just are no good, 24-hour amenities. So I don't plan around them.

I like small towns, but it seems like there's not a lot of "character" anymore. Everywhere they're franchising the same chain mini-marts, same flown-in-from-Topeka glazed "fruit" pies.
The benefit of making the ride "easier" isn't worth it, to me -- I like being able to ride long distances and see something I wouldn't see on a short trip. That means scenery, national parks, logging roads... deer trails ... making every ride an adventure. between me and an alpine view are 2 mountain ranges and one wide valley; I can't go anywhere without hitting hills, but since I enjoy hills, it works out great.

Does this make me a tourer? Absolutely -- but a lot of the "touring" types don't like to do these distances in one day. So I keep in touch with brevet and rondan riders, too. Call it the zen of the long-distance cadence... people who hit their stride around 80k see things a little differently.

Turboem1

I guess Im the only one who really likes out and backs.

Reson being that after the half way point you are riding "home". You go as far from the start for the first half then you have to get back to finish. Mentally it just seems better for me. On a loop/flower/spider/ect you are just riding one course that seems to never get to a point where you turn around and make it back. Its hard to explain.

BikeWNC

On some of my longer training rides I like to do figure 8 type rides. Basically it is two loops with the start in the middle so that I will pass the car to resupply. I also do standard loop, out and back and lolipop (an out and back with a loop) type rides as that is what is available depending on the terrain needed. Given a choice though I would always go for the ride with the best scenery and least traffic if that were an option.

cyclezealot

guess its a toss up. Out and back when riding with the club. On my own, i just go out unplanned and sometimes just sort of get lost. Guess, that's the spider.