What do you really pay for?
09-27-16, 07:51 AM
#101
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09-27-16, 08:00 AM
#102
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All of this is an economy of scale, budget, and interest level that simply can't be transferred from one person to another.
EXAMPLE 1: I feel like I make a good living, regular middle class, but with kids and mortgage I need to watch our budget. I upgraded from a $200 wal-mart bike that worked perfectly and allowed me to ride with the local road bike club, albeit working harder than others to go the same speed. I "SPLURGED" on a $850 steel-framed, carbon forked, Sora-equipped road bike because I wanted something I could ride for 10-20 years and be happy with. It has served me well. /// However, I know a well-to-do older gentleman who, since beginning to ride bikes back in the 60's, has no doubt spend at least 30-50 thousand dollars just on bicycles in his lifetime... from high-end tandems to high-end road bikes for him, his wife, and (now grown) kids...AND has probably spent double that or more on travel expenses taking him and his family different interesting places to ride those bikes. It's not a strain on his budget, he enjoyed coutless hours of quality time with his family, and he and his wife are still in great shape, still riding, and his children are as well.
EXAMPLE: It was humorous to me, when the Pope visited the US, that he rode around in a Fiat500L, (an economy car that costs under 20k new at the base trim level). It was seen as a HUGE condescension and evidence of humility and frugality. I just laughed, because We have that same vehicle, we bought it a year old closer to 15k, and it was HUGE splurge for us, the most expensive vehicle we've ever purchased.
So is a $1000 bike an unnecessary sprurge? What about a 5k bike? it depends. I have another friend who got a new $5000 Trek Domane with the separated seatpost and swears that it is saving his back on long rides.
EXAMPLE 1: I feel like I make a good living, regular middle class, but with kids and mortgage I need to watch our budget. I upgraded from a $200 wal-mart bike that worked perfectly and allowed me to ride with the local road bike club, albeit working harder than others to go the same speed. I "SPLURGED" on a $850 steel-framed, carbon forked, Sora-equipped road bike because I wanted something I could ride for 10-20 years and be happy with. It has served me well. /// However, I know a well-to-do older gentleman who, since beginning to ride bikes back in the 60's, has no doubt spend at least 30-50 thousand dollars just on bicycles in his lifetime... from high-end tandems to high-end road bikes for him, his wife, and (now grown) kids...AND has probably spent double that or more on travel expenses taking him and his family different interesting places to ride those bikes. It's not a strain on his budget, he enjoyed coutless hours of quality time with his family, and he and his wife are still in great shape, still riding, and his children are as well.
EXAMPLE: It was humorous to me, when the Pope visited the US, that he rode around in a Fiat500L, (an economy car that costs under 20k new at the base trim level). It was seen as a HUGE condescension and evidence of humility and frugality. I just laughed, because We have that same vehicle, we bought it a year old closer to 15k, and it was HUGE splurge for us, the most expensive vehicle we've ever purchased.
So is a $1000 bike an unnecessary sprurge? What about a 5k bike? it depends. I have another friend who got a new $5000 Trek Domane with the separated seatpost and swears that it is saving his back on long rides.
09-27-16, 10:59 AM
#104
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Comparing bicycles to houses is like comparing Apples to Oranges...
Most people who live in vans, do so because they have no choice.
Most people who live in a house were given a choice a one time or another (if they're the original owners). Most people who buy houses, do so out of necessity. Most people who buy bicycles, don't purchase out of necessity.
09-27-16, 05:50 PM
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Comparing bicycles to houses is like comparing Apples to Oranges...
Most people who live in vans, do so because they have no choice.
Most people who live in a house were given a choice a one time or another (if they're the original owners). Most people who buy houses, do so out of necessity. Most people who buy bicycles, don't purchase out of necessity.
Most people who live in vans, do so because they have no choice.
Most people who live in a house were given a choice a one time or another (if they're the original owners). Most people who buy houses, do so out of necessity. Most people who buy bicycles, don't purchase out of necessity.
09-27-16, 06:21 PM
#106
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I know dozens of riders on entry level bikes who blow my doors off. I just like riding nice bikes.
09-27-16, 09:28 PM
#107
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I guess perhaps we should tell the OP that if he is happy with the bikes he has, he has reached cycling Nirvana, and he should stay there and stop troubling himself and others about inconsequential issues ...
And if he is Not happy with the bikes he owns, he is going to need to pony up the extra cash to move upscale. he might then learn that the money spent is worth it to him, or he might learn that he was already in cycling Nirvana and should have just appreciated what he had.
I have some rebuilt garage sale bikes, an entry level bike, and a CF bike with Ultegra. I like them all. I do not feel the need or the desire for any more bikes ... something I often find shocking.
I definitely appreciate the performance of Ultegra but the Tiagra and Claris and ancients Deore and Alivio parts also work. Every bike feels different and has a different personality. I like them all and see no need for another.
I am in cycling Nirvana. How much I paid for any of them is immaterial. I made it.
If the OP needs to spend $400 or $4000 to get here ... the OP needs to get here. it is a wonderful place to be.
And if he is Not happy with the bikes he owns, he is going to need to pony up the extra cash to move upscale. he might then learn that the money spent is worth it to him, or he might learn that he was already in cycling Nirvana and should have just appreciated what he had.
I have some rebuilt garage sale bikes, an entry level bike, and a CF bike with Ultegra. I like them all. I do not feel the need or the desire for any more bikes ... something I often find shocking.
I definitely appreciate the performance of Ultegra but the Tiagra and Claris and ancients Deore and Alivio parts also work. Every bike feels different and has a different personality. I like them all and see no need for another.
I am in cycling Nirvana. How much I paid for any of them is immaterial. I made it.
If the OP needs to spend $400 or $4000 to get here ... the OP needs to get here. it is a wonderful place to be.
09-28-16, 07:19 AM
#109
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In my view, componentry is just so much hype. I worked at bike shops for years, and yes, the higher end stuff holds up better in general, but it doesn't justify the cost. It certainly doesn't make you go faster. Stuff like Shimano Tiagra and the equivalents from the other brands are all most people will ever need. If you get a full Tiagra bike, maybe your derailleur will wear out, or you'll have to replace your brifters (integrated brake/shift levers) but that could happen to anyone, and some repairs have to be in the budget anyway. If you have to replace something, you can upgrade it then.
But there can be a reason for me to want to spend more than $1,000. Frame lightness, wheel lightness, aesthetics, nice workmanship, or some kind of advanced design that isn't available in lower level models.
I haven't actually paid more than $1,000 for a bike, but I've been able to build some really nice bikes that would have sold for more, by being frugal and doing the work myself and waiting for good deals to come along.
If you're the kind of person who wants something that will serve you a long time and that you'll like from the first day to ten years from now, you may want to consider a $1,500 or $2,000 bike, but it's a big commitment, at least in my eyes.
It does make sense to get the best of some things, but which things those are, you have to decide. I like nice tires and lights. Some people don't care about those things.
But there can be a reason for me to want to spend more than $1,000. Frame lightness, wheel lightness, aesthetics, nice workmanship, or some kind of advanced design that isn't available in lower level models.
I haven't actually paid more than $1,000 for a bike, but I've been able to build some really nice bikes that would have sold for more, by being frugal and doing the work myself and waiting for good deals to come along.
If you're the kind of person who wants something that will serve you a long time and that you'll like from the first day to ten years from now, you may want to consider a $1,500 or $2,000 bike, but it's a big commitment, at least in my eyes.
It does make sense to get the best of some things, but which things those are, you have to decide. I like nice tires and lights. Some people don't care about those things.
Unfortunately, THIS ^^^^ post, which is probably the best response to the OP in this entire thread, has seemingly been overlooked.
Some of the responses in this thread show me the reasons why we're left with Clinton vs Trump. Too many dense people.
Many of you apparently can't read, get offended when you try to read the OP's mind, or simply just want to be an ass.
The OP is looking for reasons. He's likely questioning whether getting a more expensive bike would be worth it to him. He wants to know the "price per upgrade", so to speak.
HOW HARD IS THIS???
Pretty much EVERYBODY likes nicer stuff. So stop with the "how big is your tv?" crap.
Any idiot can see that metal spoon is nicer and more expensive than a plastic spoon and determine which is the better choice for that person.
But not every idiot (or even intelligent person) can take a more complex item like a bike, with various components and variables, and determine if certain "upgrades" are "worth" the price.
And yes, I only own US Strats, one of which is a Custom Shop Strat.
Would made in Mexico suffice? Would a Squire suffice? THAT'S NOT THE POINT.
Last edited by Stratocaster; 09-28-16 at 07:37 AM.
09-28-16, 08:33 AM
#110
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Thank you, @Stratocaster. Sometimes I wonder if I'm talking into thin air.
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09-28-16, 09:43 AM
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Thank you, @Stratocaster. Sometimes I wonder if I'm talking into thin air.
No problem. It's nice to read someone on this forum who actually wants to help. There are a few. But sometimes it's hard digging though the rest.
09-28-16, 09:56 AM
#112
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I just bought a $1,500 bike. It was a big decision. I have the money to spend on it, but that's still a lot of money for a bicycle. For me.
From what I've seen, "can afford" has a lot to do with it. The people I know who have more expensive bikes also have more disposable income. They can afford to spend $5,000 on a bicycle the way I can afford to spend $500.
From what I've seen, "can afford" has a lot to do with it. The people I know who have more expensive bikes also have more disposable income. They can afford to spend $5,000 on a bicycle the way I can afford to spend $500.
09-28-16, 10:02 AM
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This is unusually rational, so thank you.
The measurable performance gains between a mid-level bike and a high-level bike are miniscule and sometimes statistically insignificant. But they can make the experience different because of subjective experience. Some of this, of course, is us justifying to ourselves that the expenditure is worthwhile. But some of it is perceptible. For instance, a derailleur or shifter will start to wear and become imprecise, and it happens sooner with a low model than with a high model. This matters very little in a practical context, but you may enjoy the experience a lot more if you have the high model. This means you are spending beyond the point of diminishing returns, but that doesn't mean you're crazy.
In my view -- and it's only my view -- the point of diminishing returns is $1,000 or $1,500. I do like the higher end stuff, and I have bought it occasionally and not regretted it.
Also, when I was a teenager, I was working at a bike shop as a mechanic. It was a family type bike shop, and we sold virtually no high end stuff. I was planning to build a pair of wheels for myself. My boss said I should get Campagnolo hubs. My eyes popped out that he made the suggestion. He pointed out that it was an investment, and I shouldn't settle for less. I didn't see myself as a wealthy person who would have anything top-of-the-line, but he bent my thinking. As it turns out, hubs are one component on the bike where you can get return on your investment. People talk endlessly about performance of derailleur and shifter systems, but it's less consequential. You shift gears every few minutes or less. Your hubs are rolling 100% of the time while the bike is in motion. Plus, changing hubs is more labor and money intensive.
...It's hard to do double-blind test rides on bikes. If it were easy, opinions about what's good and what's not would be different than they are.
The measurable performance gains between a mid-level bike and a high-level bike are miniscule and sometimes statistically insignificant. But they can make the experience different because of subjective experience. Some of this, of course, is us justifying to ourselves that the expenditure is worthwhile. But some of it is perceptible. For instance, a derailleur or shifter will start to wear and become imprecise, and it happens sooner with a low model than with a high model. This matters very little in a practical context, but you may enjoy the experience a lot more if you have the high model. This means you are spending beyond the point of diminishing returns, but that doesn't mean you're crazy.
In my view -- and it's only my view -- the point of diminishing returns is $1,000 or $1,500. I do like the higher end stuff, and I have bought it occasionally and not regretted it.
Also, when I was a teenager, I was working at a bike shop as a mechanic. It was a family type bike shop, and we sold virtually no high end stuff. I was planning to build a pair of wheels for myself. My boss said I should get Campagnolo hubs. My eyes popped out that he made the suggestion. He pointed out that it was an investment, and I shouldn't settle for less. I didn't see myself as a wealthy person who would have anything top-of-the-line, but he bent my thinking. As it turns out, hubs are one component on the bike where you can get return on your investment. People talk endlessly about performance of derailleur and shifter systems, but it's less consequential. You shift gears every few minutes or less. Your hubs are rolling 100% of the time while the bike is in motion. Plus, changing hubs is more labor and money intensive.
...It's hard to do double-blind test rides on bikes. If it were easy, opinions about what's good and what's not would be different than they are.
Uh-oh! 
:
09-28-16, 10:14 AM
#117
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Chainrings will wear. In theory, the better ones last longer, and it's one place where I believe the claims, but there is still a point of diminishing returns where to get X% longer wear, you pay X+Y% more money.
Cassettes and chains definitely don't last as long as bikes do. Chainrings usually do.
Shimano 105 is higher quality than most people need. That is why MY PERSONAL point of diminishing return is around the Tiagra or 105 level.
Your wheels should not need such frequent truing and tightening. The fact that they do indicates bad labor, not bad materials. Have a GOOD wheel builder tension and true the wheels.
What kind of bike are you riding? Some bikes can take wider tires, and some can't.
Cassettes and chains definitely don't last as long as bikes do. Chainrings usually do.
Shimano 105 is higher quality than most people need. That is why MY PERSONAL point of diminishing return is around the Tiagra or 105 level.
Your wheels should not need such frequent truing and tightening. The fact that they do indicates bad labor, not bad materials. Have a GOOD wheel builder tension and true the wheels.
What kind of bike are you riding? Some bikes can take wider tires, and some can't.
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09-28-16, 10:17 AM
#118
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One reason to spend beyond the point of diminishing returns is that the more expensive thing is lighter. Sometimes, that more expensive thing is both lighter and more durable or reliable. But it does not mean it cost more to make. For example, the increase in cost to manufacture a 105 derailleur over a Tiagra derailleur is tiny. In fact, it might be cheaper to make the 105. But they charge more because of value. The wholesaler and especially the retailer are reaping profit. Is it a ripoff? Not really, if you really want the advantage it offers.
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09-28-16, 10:23 AM
#119
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It's a Trek Pilot 1.2 2006 model. Has 15000 miles on it.
I think the wheels are OK now. During the first year I rode a lot (3000 miles) I had the most issues. At the end of the season I trued them and it was better but another year later they needed some adjustments. I just checked right now and they are still rolling with no wobble. My wife's wobble, maybe they just come that way new.
I think the wheels are OK now. During the first year I rode a lot (3000 miles) I had the most issues. At the end of the season I trued them and it was better but another year later they needed some adjustments. I just checked right now and they are still rolling with no wobble. My wife's wobble, maybe they just come that way new.
09-28-16, 10:47 AM
#120
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You do ride a lot! I would say that whenever you need to replace something, you should go up a model or two, because you're eventually going to wear everything out. That's a good thing. At that kind of riding, a bike costing $1,500 or $2,000 is easily justified.
I found this page describing your bike, and it might or might not be accurate. It says the price was $989.
I found this page describing your bike, and it might or might not be accurate. It says the price was $989.
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09-28-16, 11:23 AM
#121
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the real problem with questions like this is that it's horribly non-specific. It's a lot easier to compare two bikes than it is to come up with general ways that more expensive bikes are better. If you asked the owner of my LBS this question about a range of bikes, he could answer in excruciating detail. We were in there a while back, and my friend asked something about a particular new model bike, and it got into eye-roll territory pretty fast. They had actually gotten in a different configuration bike than the stock bike because the manufacturer had cut some corners that the owner didn't like. Apparently you can negotiate on things like that if you buy enough.
I had a problem with my main road bike, and I put together another bike so I could ride. I used the rear derailleur off of my daughter's discarded comfort bike. Works really well, and I doubt it weighs significantly more than the ultegra on my main bike. But there is about $60 retail difference between the two. The price differences add up a lot faster than the weight/performance differences. However, I would never use the crank off of the comfort bike for anything other than commuting. Heavy, wear out quickly, not particularly straight. Those are differences that are important.
I had a problem with my main road bike, and I put together another bike so I could ride. I used the rear derailleur off of my daughter's discarded comfort bike. Works really well, and I doubt it weighs significantly more than the ultegra on my main bike. But there is about $60 retail difference between the two. The price differences add up a lot faster than the weight/performance differences. However, I would never use the crank off of the comfort bike for anything other than commuting. Heavy, wear out quickly, not particularly straight. Those are differences that are important.
09-28-16, 12:58 PM
#122
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Bikes are like wines -- it may be hard to objectively quantify what makes it enjoyable to you, but you know it when you taste it - or ride it. 
Wine forums are full of the very same discussions - just substitute the lingo of wines for the lingo of bikes and we're there.
Wine forums are full of the very same discussions - just substitute the lingo of wines for the lingo of bikes and we're there.
09-28-16, 01:05 PM
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Best part is, like wine, the whole thing is subjective. We are all right or wrong only to the degree to which our thoughts accurately reflect our feelings.
You like your bike, it is right.
You like your bike, it is right.
09-28-16, 01:56 PM
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Another thing: When sales of those $5,000 + bikes are done, the pro riders benefit by riding bikes that handle better and supposedly allow them to ride faster, in sprints, or climbs, or time trials. Mountain bikes too, in different ways.
For the non pro rider and non Category 1 riders, those same bikes allow you to experience what the pro riders use. In a sense, you are paying for the development of bike technology.
For the non pro rider and non Category 1 riders, those same bikes allow you to experience what the pro riders use. In a sense, you are paying for the development of bike technology.
09-30-16, 08:41 AM
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Depends on the test drive. I went for to a demo day at my local cycling club and MTB trails and was able to do 30 minute laps on alloy and carbon bikes with different components and even my rookie ass was able to tell the differences.
My wallet though wasnt as understanding though.
And one of my local shop can let us rent a bike for a day or 2 to demo it. It's a good way to see if it's worth it instead of just circling the parking lot a few times and whatever he charges is deducted from the sale's price if you buy it.