tetonrider

honestly, this is a question to talk about on a long ride, or there has been a ton written about tubulars that you can easily google.

briefly:
1: tubeless solves some problems, but it may not solve yours. they can be great if your flats are caused by tiny little things -- like cactus needles when riding MTB trails in arizona. you can burp a tire or get a cut that is too big to seal. these can lead to fast loss of pressure. also, if you do have to change a flat on the road it can range from messy (sealant) to mildly frustrating (TL requires a tight fit) to a total PITA (broken levers--depends on rim & tire combo).

2: tubulars do NOT require a professional glue job. when you were a little kid, did you ever do an arts and crafts project with colored paper and a glue stick? that's the level of difficulty we're talking about (no joke). there are subtleties and it can take a while (letting glue dry, mostly), and doing things clean takes a few tries to dial in, but's it's not HARD.

sometimes it's a PITA -- if you flat during the evening crit at a stage race you'll have to hustle to re-glue for the next morning's RR, but as a racer just grab a spare wheel or a neutral wheel. there are some tricks for changing a flat on the road, but you can also try sealant (cafe latex) or even ride a flat. That's also where the safety comes in--the mechanical interface means that in the event of a sudden loss of pressure (really rare), you still have a bit of rubber between your rim and the road. This can buy you a few seconds on a mountain descent, but sometimes that couple seconds is all you may need.

stripping a tubular rim to bare carbon takes some work, but you actually don't have to do this very often if you did a good glue job in the first place. it's like every 4 or 5 tire changes for me, so 4,000+ RACE miles.

tubulars don't pinch (yeah, someone has gotten that to happen, but it's incredibly rare), and you can run them at lower pressure than tubes as a result.

not trying to persuade you, but given what you described it just doesn't seem like switching frames or rims would solve your issue. IME hits square edges hard with TL wheels/tires isn't great for them.

the only thing i'd like to dispel is that tubulars are HARD to deal with and that the advantages they provide are obsolete.

tetonrider

photo's a little small for me, but is that a check to gaimon? for a hill climb national champion?

oh, USA cycling...

is that a good use of money?

ugh.

it's kind of a contrived thing (yeah, all racing is to some degree), but the RR national champion doesn't get a check, does he?

not sure why but this strikes me as silly.

Doge

paid 5 deep, 350, ?, 250,?,75
I believe this is the only open USA national championship - P1-5. That might make it different. I think the Pros get paid, don't know.

tetonrider

it would surprise me if the national championships (the actual ones, not the age group stuff--we know that isn't) is paid, but i could very well be wrong. i'd just be surprised.

paying $1k for the hill climb 'national championships' when basically by definition the best national riders will not be able to compete is, well, kind of silly.

IMO.

curious to hear others' opinions.

mattm

I can only add that I recently asked a local badass crit racer why he didn't go to elite crit nats, he said "because there's no money"

tetonrider

you could always add your opinion. ;-)

USAC -- for amateurs and i suspect for pros -- has had a no-cash-just-jerseys/medals policy at nationals. that's for elites, old dudes, RRs, TTs, etc.

so now there's another way for someone to put stripes on their kit (yes, mostly going to be masters -- and i'll admit if i won i'd be stoked!). i get that it's a good cash grab; nothing draws racers like moths to the flame as much as the chance at earning that jersey, but to add cash to this one unlike all others? just seems like USAC putting money on -- yet again -- the wrong thing.

again, IMO.

dz_nuzz

Nice job! I know Erik V. he is the local "hillclimber" definitely no slouch!

gsteinb

Thanks, folks.

Yeah, he's tough. I beat him earlier in the year at Watchusset, but wasn't sure over the longer distance. We rode together most of the way, but he gapped me on a long dirt section a couple of miles from the top and I just couldn't come back to him. I ended up just riding conservatively from there, not considering there were other start waves. So I lost about 60-90 seconds and a couple places overall. But I was mainly focused on the age group thing.

aaronmcd

Raced an 11 mile TT. I hate TTs. 3rd of 7 in the 2/3 category. Lazy so I didnt bother with a skinsuit or clip on bars or moving the saddle. Also my power meter battery died last night. I think I went out too hard, but I kept a good for me pace on the slight uphill outbound leg. Went a tad slow on the return leg, probably due to not getting the bike set up for TT. Ended up 30 seconds slower than last time a few years ago.

Double omnium points tho, so now I can skip the finale if I need to when my in-laws are in town and keep the lead unless a certain someone takes all the primes and the win.

dz_nuzz

Got away with winning the Pete Murphy TT, which happened to be the New England TT champs. Lucky for me, all the fast dudes were at Washington doing a hill climb so I guess I am the regional champion (for my age category, though I did also post the fastest time, so I guess overall as well?)

spdntrxi

Did the same TT as Aaron.. only me and some other guy in old guy cat6gory.. so 1/2 is meh.

Doge

My opinion is USAC is mostly about fun and mostly for masters.
As far as cycling for making a living stuff, I think the only NC races that matter in order are U23, 17-18, collegiate and professional. Matter being they get you a contract/notice etc. - improve your cycling career. Pro mattering least because they are pros and it is really just more fun for them too.
So, all the other NC USAC events, while not silly, kinda in the same spot. They are for fun. If it is fun for the participants, I don't have an issue with it. If $ makes it more fun, and it pays the bills - $350 for first is less than many crits, and does not bother me (and not sure USAC put of that money).


I think it is fair to say the quality and number of competitors are a big indicator of how hard/worthy a champion may be. But it is one factor, and there are others. Of course the strongest guys were not all there. I think a hill climb that starts at 9,300ft and ends at 14,110ft is pretty much a one-off thing. There is just not enough air up there to power bigger muscles, found in many pro riders, or strong kids. I wouldn't expect the placing to be the same on that mountain vs on Palomar, or Washington for example. It is different. As such I'm not convinced all those strong Colorado Classic riders below could just scamper up the mountain. Phil still may have won.

This really was a RR and while riders were not drafting much after about 1/3 the way up they were marking each other and positions. There were only about 30 starter in the P12345 race, not enought IMO. Put 50 CC pros in there and it might look much more like a Euro mountain RR, with attacks being covered etc. I'd love to see it, but anyway it was fun there was it was.

FFJ

Do any of the big weekly crit / RR series (like Austin's Driveway Series) use chips to help with results?

Doge

My response is in scope of USA Cycling races.
I can see chips being used to assist with the finish order. But I've since asked and read the rules that the order across the line is the determiner. So far, chip races also have finish judges and generally a have cameras. So it is the order over the line that counts. I think the chips just help sort out order real nicely.

There are un-addressed issues chips don't cover for finishes a tires width apart, or the TT results I often see. Wheel size alone (600 vs 700) would make the smaller wheel show sooner finish if both leading edges were the same.
If chips were accurate to the cm, then even placement on the fork would matter. A dropout placement, vs fork crown vs sock (yea riders put them in socks) would be different. It think they are there to help, and my mistake was listening to a race promoter over written rules when he said the chip would determine the winner.

mattm

You're right.

My opinion is dammit why did this discussion have to override my San Ardo race report, in which I got on the (west coast) podium in a 92-mile p/1/2 road race?! =]

mattm

SJBC training crit tonight. Local heavy hitter showed up, which is good because it makes things more animated and makes for better training, even if I'm less likely to win.

Rode to the race - was bummed to find my front half-flat just before I was about to leave.. probably something from San Ardo! Those goat-heads follow you for hundreds of miles apparently. Slapped on new tired/tube since I was about to do 60+ miles, half of it in the dark and didn't want to flat again.

The race was good, I attacked a few times and eventually got away. A break of four with all the "right" guys in it, but we played games and a masters guy got away. Works for me, I like the guy who won and got good training out of it so whatever. One dude talked a bunch of **** for some reason, brake-checked me, the whole 9, so I made sure to whip him in the "field" sprint. It's the little things that count!

Then got a slow leak on 20-mile ride home, in the dark. I swear it was a goat-head in my new tire! I mean wtf.

aaronmcd

Wait what happened?

mattm

Exactly!

(go back to the last page to see my report)

tetonrider

you've cursed yourself because you win so often; we'll comment win you WIN the RR... podiums for you don't even register. ;-)

dz_nuzz

Haha I like what @tetonrider said! Nice going @mattm, I will admit I am not surprised that you can turn crit prowess into RR prowess . I do need to give some kudos to the one guy who stayed away whoever he is. That is the stuff I dream of.

mattm

Yeah super impressive ride by him!

He was unknown (to me) and in a generic kit, so when he went in the break I shrugged. Physically he looked strong but that can be deceiving..

Then when he was solo otf for the last ~20 miles, I figured "no way anyone can stay away."

mattm

Did the Henleyville RR today, only ~73 miles. Didn't make the break..

It's about 3 hours away (w/out traffic) and starts at 8 AM, so it's always been a no-go for me. But this year I'm 2nd in BAR points for the elite 1/2 field, and up there in the "Cal Cup" (series of races with a decent payout).

So I drove up Friday, did the race this morning. Made the mistake of not leaving early enough yesterday, hit Friday/regular traffic when heading north, so the drive actually took a little over four hours.. ugh. Stopped about halfway to ride in an area I've only raced in, just to break up the monotony and also since I hadn't ridden since Tuesday. Felt weird to do the towel/change thing in a neighborhood when you're the only one doing it! The riding up there (around Winters) was nice though - so flat.

Anyway the race: had @aaronmcd and another team mate, who said they'd work for me. Sweet! And another guy from a different team who also said he'd work for me. Sweet x 2!

The pack wasn't huge, but was decent - maybe 20? The course is mostly flat/windy, with a small ~2 minute climb through the feed zone.

Early break went coming in to the feed climb the first time. I was on the back, figured all those guys that were there to help me would shut it down. But J, the guy from another team who said he was basically racing for us today, got in the move and didn't look back. How's that for some teamwork?! lol

My actual teammates didn't chase at first. I was hoping it'd come back. (it didn't) Once the break had a ~1 minute gap and it was pretty clear they weren't coming back, I tried to bridge. Was hoping someone (like the local jr hotshot who recently signed with Axeon) would come with me, but he didn't. So I tried to bridge for about 8 minutes until I blew up. Made it maybe halfway but that last 20-30 seconds is the hardest..

Eventually I convinced my teammates to actually chase. All the other teams had someone in the move, so it was down to just us. And the jr hotshot - who had instructions to sit in the first hour, then chase in the 2nd hour - chased, which was cool. I even pitched in a little. But it was all too little too late.

On the last lap (of four), a little split in our chase group happened and I jumped across. We rode to the finish as a little group of 8 or so, but this race has a weird finish - you don't actually do it until the last lap/the actual finish. Having never done this race before, I didn't really know what to expect, besides it had a little rise. A friend in our group told me what to expect, so that helped.

There was a little bump leading up to the line, with a straight 400m or so from the last corner to the line. I was 2nd or 3rd wheel in our group (sprinting for 6th), waited for what felt like forever, and was the first to jump. But it was too soon, so I blew up and got swarmed by a few guys. Not sure where I ended up, maybe 11th? Probably scraped up a few BAR points but damn, I shoulda been in that break!!

In some ways in was a total waste to drive all the way up there, hotel, etc, but it wasn't all bad. My tan lines are looking decent! And I gained some experience points.. I learned not to rely on some who's not on your team who says they'll help (I told him he was fired after the race), and learned (for the millionth time) that I should probably go with that early break if it looks anywhere close to promising.

hack

Did that a couple years back. Still makes me sad.

rubiksoval

I wasn't planning on racing anymore this year. I had lined up to race our Wed. night crit the Wed. before last but they called the race off while we were on the start line due to an approaching storm. I had a commanding lead in the overall series so no one could catch me with only one race left. But then two days before the final race this Wed., they up and decided they'd make it count double points and they would drop your two lowest races (out of 12). So that meant that if the guy in third podiumed and I got zero points, he could overtake me.

So I had to line up again. I hadn't ridden since that previous Wed so I went out before work that morning to hammer for 20 minutes and try to see if I had any legs at all. Then Wed. night I actually didn't feel like death, so managed to win the field sprint for 2nd and finish out with the overall championship for the third year running.

So since I still had legs despite hardly training for the last month, I decided to head down to Chattanooga to do TN's biggest race weekend. I just did the crit. Two of the best amateur teams in the country were there (Harley Davidson and Palmetto State, both with a few of the top crit riders in the country on their squads as well as the nat TT champion and Crit champion, respectively). A couple of Hincapie guys showed up, and then a bunch more of the SE's and Midwest's finest.

It was hard. We averaged 29.3 for the hour. It's one of those "sprint and coast" races, so you're doing 500-600w+ and then coasting and cornering. AP/NP were only 234/265, but legs are just toast from half a million accelerations. Ended up seventh after having the crit nat champ come blitzing on my inside with 2 corners to go while the guy who got 2nd at the u23 crit last year came simultaneously blitzing on the outside. Whattttt. Should have hit that corner faster, I guess. Couldn't pass either of them back in the sprint, and the three guys who went for the $500 gambler's prime the previous lap managed to just hold on at the line. Guy who just finished Tour of Quinghai Lake (from China to Chattanooga?! Why?!) won with a Hincapie guy second.

So now since I don't entirely suck I'm going to head up to St. Louis and do the first two Gateway Cup PRTs next Friday and Sat. I'd been planning on doing it all year until two weeks ago, but since last night went alright I'd like to see if I can snag some higher ranking points. I need one or two more sub 58 point placings and I should move up quite a bit in the national ranks.

PepeM

Out of curiosity, why Friday and Saturday? Those are the boring ones.