tomato coupe

It seems like lots of them used to be really noisy -- I always thought they sounded like a "Big Wheel" approaching -- but most current carbon wheels seem to be no louder than alloy.

Johnk3

I completely agree on the value of carbon wheels. I am a died in the wool Campy devotee, but I stick to HED or H Plus Son alloy rims on White Industries hubs. They are strong and quiet. At my weight and on occasionally rough roads, I need more spokes than 16/21. A few years ago I bought some Rol wheels with 28 spokes, it didn't take too long for me to start breaking spokes until my LBS guru rebuilt them with stronger spokes. All spokes are not created equal.

I am currently waiting delivery on a set of HED Belgium Plus rims on White Industries T11 hubs laced 24/28 with Saphim CX Ray spokes. They are supposed to weigh 1,587 grams and I will use Vittoria Corsa Control 25 mm tubeless tires. They will be used on my new Cicli Barco XCr bike now being finished in Italy. I expect the entire bike to be barely under 19 lbs for a 59 cm seat tube size.

tomato coupe

Have you ever owned carbon wheels?

Darth Lefty 

Novatec hubs are the Asian budget alternative, but they are not mysterious and they are not undocumented. They are sold with a wide variety of bikes. Look here for example:

Novatec Hubs | N guide

Johnk3

Owned? Well, I bought a set of tubular Eastons for my wife's Wilier time trial bike. I have not ridden on those, but my serious racer LBS guru loaned me a set he was proud of while I was having a set of wheels rebuilt. I took it out on a back country road with a rough chipped stone surface. The damn things made so much noise, I couldn't concentrate on anything else. I realize that carbon wheels are the ideal for racing types. But, I am 72 y/o and hardly a racer. I frequently ride on rough roads.

A few months ago I was lollygagging along a back country road admiring the trees and creek that the road followed when I hit a big-ass pothole that threw me back onto the road so hard my helmet cracked open like an over-ripe melon. My H Plus son Archtype rim was not fazed and not a mm out of true. I wonder if a carbon rim with fewer spokes would have survived as well. I certainly would have been wary of its structural integrity thereafter.

tomato coupe

I wouldn't judge carbon wheels based on one ride on a borrowed set. I own 5 sets of carbon wheels, as well as 3 sets of the aforementioned Campy Zonda / Fulcrum Racing 3 wheels. Compared to Zondas, the carbon wheels:
-- are lighter (also lighter than Shamals)
-- are more aero
-- are less flexible
-- have more spokes
-- are just as quiet (except for the free hubs, which are louder)

All my wheels are used regularly on gravel, and two sets of the carbon wheels are used in gravel races. Carbon and aluminum have held up equally well. I'm not saying that carbon wheels are for everyone, but they definitely offer performance advantages.

cheesesandwich

You are right if they are ENVEs or ZIPPs and that is why I don't find them worth buying. But MIC rim prices are close to some alloy rims and within my budget. So I thought why not try something different from the Ardennes for my 2nd wheelset. The HED Jets were on my radar for some time but I still could not justify the price.

. I used to have the fulcrum 7, good wheels but once I switched to Ardennes the difference was noticable in weight and speed. The carbon rims will be laced 24/28h with DT swiss Competition to the the 350s, so I think the strength should be good.
Why I go for carbon rims? Same reason as I went for carbon frames from alloy, Curious about the ride quality etc. But I don't have any problem going back to alloy in the future.

Johnk3

You are correct in that my limited experience with carbon is not a great fact basis. More aero isn't an important aspect of my life. Until I lose weight and become more aero myself, that is a fool's mission. Besides, I find the effect of cross winds annoying. On my old school lugged steel frame and H Plus Son TB 14 rims, even strong cross winds are a non-issue. However, on my carbon bike with somewhat aero wheels, side gusts are felt.

Of course, the carbon wheels, especially high quality ones, are a lot more expensive than alloy. I have seen side by side lists of carbon and alloy rims and was struck by how close they are in weight. I assume that may have to do with the larger size of the deep aero carbon rims. In any event, to me saving 100 grams on a wheelset does not justify spending an extra thousand or so. And there is the the long term durability factor.

DaveSSS 

Fulcrum 7 wheels are very low level wheels. I wouldn't own anything lower than Fulcrum 3/Zonda. That's the sweet spot where the weight is decent, the hub quality excellent and the rim is also excellent. The next wheel up the line costs about twice as much. Bontrager Aeolus carbon rimmed wheels cost 3 times as much and weigh a little more. The only carbon rimmed wheelsets that are moderately priced come from China and if they don't stay true, they are not any bargain.

I haven't owned any carbon rims for good reason. I prefer rim brakes. Rim brakes and carbon rims isn't a smart combination since I ride a lot of mountain descents.

Johnk3

This is important. Carbon rims require special brake pads to work at all. I truly believe that disk brakes are a techie gimmick. The amount of force needed to stop on an area that small is very high and if there is any problems, you are toast. Also, there is the imbalance factor; the fact that the brakes are offset requires a specially built and stronger fork and stay to account for the torque.

I for one am going with direct mount rim breaks. There is also the aestethics, disc breaks look ugly.

tomato coupe

One man's sweet spot is another man's ... non sweet spot.

tomato coupe

If anything goes wrong with rim brakes, you're also toast.

DaveSSS 

I made the mistake of buying the cheaper Scirocco wheelset once. They were OK, but not as nice as the Zondas. I got them real cheap and resold them after about 6 months, with little loss. I've owned the higher level Fulcrum Zero wheels, too. No complaints about them, but not worth twice the price to save 100 grams, but in this case, they sure were pretty. In this case, 11 speed was just introduced, late in 2008, for the 2009 model year so this special edition LOOK 585 of mine got a new compact crank and 11 speed cassette, for the mountains.




To be more specific, the cheaper wheels are a lot heavier, require rim tape and have lower priced hubs with cartridge bearings.

tomato coupe

You don't have to justify why Zonda's are your sweet spot ... but they aren't everybody's sweet spot.

DaveSSS 

And you don't need to keeping making worthless comments that add nothing to the discussion, but I'm sure that you will.

tomato coupe

My apologies. I didn't realize that your wheel preference is the best choice for everyone. I'm curious though, why do they make all those other wheels if Zondas are clearly the right wheel for everybody?

Johnk3

My alloy H Plus Son rims are totally silent. My White Industries hubs are just a quite faint ticking sound. The Vittoria Corsa Control tires make the most noise which is almost none. But I can hear most carbons coming like Big Wheels, especially the full disc wheels on some time trial bikes. I'll bet they are fun in the wind.

smashndash

This is probably the hottest take here. How is DT240 so much better than the 350? It’s just a bearing swap away from being practically identical, isn’t it? Besides having swappable front endcaps and thread-in spokes (which are questionable in value)?

I know OP made their choice but I’ll share anyway. I have experience with an alloy rim + bitex (china) hub and a deep carbon rim + DT350 hubs.

I had no huge problems with the bitex hub. Bearings are not as smooth as DT but that’s an easy fix. The pawls frequently skipped if I got on the power after coasting, but a) getting rid of half the pawls and b) keeping the endcaps tight helped with that. I get this issue on the 350 as well, despite it having one of the most highly praised mechanisms. I would also say the 6 pawl freehub drag was unbearable but I’m sure that’s the case with most high engagement systems. None of these are dealbreakers. Not sure how much better/worse novatec is.

The deep carbon rims made it really sketchy to ride no-handed above ~20mph and crosswinds/high speed descending required more active control. The ride quality was also significantly worse. Bumps felt a lot more “square”. I would run lower tire pressures, but the worst problem with carbon rims is how delicate they are. There’s a lot of gravel strewn across roads here and I was getting a lot of chips in the brake track. I was also afraid of damaging the rim (invisibly) by hitting a pothole at lower pressures. The braking is also worse on long, steep descents despite my using expensive and fast wearing Black Prince pads. Once heat soaks in, the rims feel like polished hardwood. There’s no bite. The brakes are also harder to modulate because of how weirdly grabby the soft pads combined with the textured brake track are. Alloy braking is pretty predictable and linear. Carbon jumps to significant braking at a light touch, and then (especially with heat soak) doesn’t do much until you REALLY grab them and then it kicks in hard. Late braking is scary because you aren’t quite sure about how much the brakes are gonna bite.

Overall, I wouldn’t worry about the cheaper hub too much but I would seriously think about whether deep rims are worth it. They look cool and are undeniably faster on flats and descents but they reduce your ride quality, make handling/braking harder and require babying. I won’t list expense because China carbon rims are cheap.

Johnk3

Try the HED Belgium Plus rims they are generally considered to be one of the best alloy rims available. 25 mm wide on the outside and 21 mm on the inside and they are tubeless ready. I just got full wheelset made with them with White industries T11 hubs and Sapim CX Ray spokes (24 front, 28 rear) for under $1,000. They weigh 1587 grams and they are bulletproof and will live longer than you..

Lots of people tout how light carbon wheels are but the reality is that they are not significantly lighter than aluminum. Campagnolo's top Alloy rim wheelset weighs in at 1449 gm. Their top Carbon disc wheelset at 33 mm deep weighs in at 1485 gm but costs $$$$.

Major alloy rim makers for road bikes have rims that weigh between 435 gms and 485 gms. (HED, Easton, Boyd, H Plus Son, Velocity)
Major carbon rim makers rims weigh between 375 and 545 gm. (Reynolds, ENVE, Boyd, Knight)

How important is the aero factor? I'll bet that you will not be able to tell the difference. The rider, bike, helmet, saddlebag, water bottle, shirt, etc are more significant. But if you are a time trial racer, deep carbon wheels are very important because like the helmet, skinsuit, shoe covers, etc, it all adds up to seconds per mile.

Carbon fiber isn't a consideration unless you have disc brakes. Carbon fiber rim brakes are mediocre at best and dangerous at worst. Carbon fiber does not disperse heat well and require special brake pads at the very least.

tomato coupe

Actually, Campy's lightest carbon wheels are 1360g, and many companies make carbon wheels that weigh less than that.

smashndash

Yeah I thought that seemed off lol. The lightest rims are low profile hookless carbon rims. These can get into the 290g range. There aren’t many on the market right now because hookless rims don’t work with tube-requiring tires but once tubeless is the norm (the disc brake war is a false flag operation to distract the public from TL) we’re going to see a lot of sub 1200g road wheelsets. Cadex, Light Bicycle, ENVE and probably some others have already taken advantage of this. Some guys are also developing carbon spokes, which would basically mean an 1100g wheelset would be similar or better than a 1500g steel spoke, alloy wheelset in terms of stiffness. Disc brakes mean we might even see the comeback of single wall rims like the Zipp 3Zero Moto. Probably talking 1000g race-worthy wheelsets at that point. The tech exists. It would be ignorant to say that carbon wheels aren’t lighter.

Johnk3

Yes but that is for a rim brake model the disc brake version is 1483 gm for a clincher. Tubular is about 200 grams less. My point is that for most consumers, the carbon wheels they can afford or that come on prebuilt bikes are not much lighter than alloy rims.

But those super light weight wheels are far out of the pocket book of this thread.

tomato coupe

Yes, because the aluminum wheels you're comparing them to are rim brake. If you want to compare disc brake wheels, then Campy's lightest aluminum is 1592g. You have to compare apples to apples.
Good, lightweight carbon wheels are available at reasonable prices. I gave my wife a new set of carbon wheels in December. They are the same weight as Campy's lightest carbon wheels, but they cost less than Campy's best aluminum wheels. (No, they're not generic Asian imports.)

Johnk3

What were they? I'll bet they were mass produced asian imports.

Johnk3

That is not a good comparison because carbon rim brake wheels are not realistically acceptable.