Bah Humbug

All this back and forth on whether aero bikes are slightly faster is missing the forest for the trees that fall in it: is there an advantage to a non-competitive cyclist finishing a training ride a minute or two sooner?

asgelle

Do you really believe there's one single answer to that question? Everyone has to answer for themselves.

Bah Humbug

I'd love to hear a concrete reason why it's important to anyone to save that sort of time on a training ride, so yes, I do believe there's a single answer. Even you've failed to say you care about shaving a minute off your training ride; you hang your entire argument on "there is a difference" not "yes I want to be a little bit faster on non-competitive rides".

And if you want to take the waffling "everyone has to answer that themselves" approach, you've wasted a lot of time and effort attempting to convince everyone else that your "single answer" is correct. Further, you deliver it with a massive dose of self-righteous passive-aggressiveness, which is what I've seen from you in the other threads you've partaken in lately.

asgelle

My "argument," as you call it, is that everyone has to decide for themselves, and all we can do is present what difference particular choices make so the decision is an informed one. My choice in equipment, how I balance my own unique priorities, is no more relevant to anyone else than my shoe size.

wphamilton

He may have his own reasons, but for my part I can tell you that it's not about saving a minute, nor any amount of time. Going fast is fun; going faster is more fun. That's the long and short of it.

chainwhip

johngwheeler to the white courtesy phone...johngwheeler...white courtesy phone...

Abe_Froman

Asked and answered. It's sort of like asking why everyone doest just buy a $300 cruiser bike. Aero is faster. Faster is better. With few exceptions, for road cyclists, regardless of how serious they are, most tend to place speed as the #1 factor governing equipment choices.

Abe_Froman

Post 119 contributed nothing to the discussion, and further, did nearly nothing to describe the methods/goals/conclusions of the giant research article that has been referenced and linked.

I'd seriously like to see someone dispute that...

Bah Humbug

The difference between a cruiser and any road bike is much greater than the difference between a good normal road bike and an aero road bike. Do you really have more fun going a small fraction of an mph faster? Really? Could you even tell it if you didn't have a GPS record at the end? I don't believe you could. Not even if you swear you could.

Bah Humbug

As I call it? If you're not arguing, you're spending a whole lot of effort not arguing. However, even I think this thread has gone too long, so have fun arguing that skinsuits give real advantages to angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Abe_Froman

What you say is of course true. And no, obviously if I just got on an aero bike without any additional data, I couldnt gauge the speed difference. Nobody could. But it's sort of irrelevant. The same argument applies to dozens of equipment choices/upgrades.

Lower rolling resistance tires. Deep section aero or just lightweight climbing wheels. Aero handlebars. Lower rolling resistance tires. Tight fitting race jersey. Lower weight groupsets.

All of those individual things would contribute a speed gain that would be undetectable by a normal person. Yet virtually all cyclists, ignoring cost constraints, go after all or some of them. Why? Speed. Each upgrade only contributes a fraction of a mph. But equipment DOES matter. One road bike can be multiple miles per hour faster than another. And everyone would rather go 20mph than 18mph. So the real argument SHOULD be where do the benefits of aero frames fall relative to other upgrades? And of course i'd argue that relative to other options, they're pretty far down the list. But of course there is the factor that it's the bike itself...a starting point. So it mike make a lot of sense for many people to go for an aero frame from the get go for a new purchase, and then move onto other upgrades later.

WhyFi

Honestly, without any instrumentation, I would bet that 9/10 would swear that's worth more watts than the GPS/power record would bear out - we're emotional creatures that like to get swept up. The last guy would be the hardcore curmudgeon that's just riding to confirm his long-held belief that his steel steed with DT shifters is still way better.

asgelle

Again, missing the point. Whatever you might think of the merits of the post, it demonstrated Robert's willingness to engage in discussions of his methods. I'd like to see anyone dispute that.

Abe_Froman

I already did dispute that. And i stand by my dispute.

wphamilton

Why are you asking him when it was my opinion?

Yes, half a mph faster is that much more fun, and absolutely I can tell in real-time. Each half mph faster on my own, even .2 mph faster, was a lot of work for me every step of the way and it's not that difficult to realize when you're going faster at the same effort as before. When it's due to the bike, better tires, better position or what have you, yes you can tell in that case also.

gregf83 

The challenge in these type of tests is achieving the 'same position'. Because the effect you're attempting to measure is not large small differences in riding position have a significant impact on the results. I'm not disputing your tests just pointing out one of the difficulties in getting reliable accurate measurements.
Here's a test by Cervelo comparing their aero frame with some others:

RChung

Yup, though *depending on what you're trying to determine* sometimes it suffices to simply to know which different position or equipment is faster. For example, the stack-and-reach of my current bike is slightly different than my previous bike and even though I can get close to the same position on each bike I'd need a custom stem in order to get *exactly* the same position. In a larger sense all I can do is to measure total drag from my position on one bike vs. the other, with any differences that go with that.

OTOH, perhaps you were talking about changing position within a test. That shows up as either a change in the estimated parameters or else noise in the estimated parameters (sort of like sampling variability). An example of the former is when something transient and short-term happens, like getting passed by a car or a moment when you have to hit the brakes to avoid a hazard.

chainwhip

"An example of the former is when something transient and short-term happens, like getting passed by a car or a moment when you have to hit the brakes to avoid a hazard."

112 pages vs. uncontrolled testing environment.
Might as well spit ball it.

Abe_Froman

I'm thinking you should focus far less on efficiency and far more on clarity.

Maelochs

Ah .... here is the conundrum .... what if the aero frame is ..... Somewhat Heavier?

And .... what if the aero frame is painted white .... but the other frame is painted ... Red?

datlas 

Hi!

What's this thread about?

RChung

Oh, come on. My stuff ain't for everyone, it's for those who care. People who care already think it's clear enough. If you don't think it's clear, it means you don't care (or you're incapable of understanding, which I suppose could be a possibility). If you don't care, why should I make an effort to explain it? That's nuts. IRL I'm a professor. If a student actively avoids doing the course work, I don't think my clarity is the issue.

Cpinn3r

to the original OP

Just going to add my two cents. I'm no expert or competitive rider, but I to was envy of all those aero bikes I been seeing pop up. So I picked up a 2014 Felt AR and im coming from a Felt Z75.

W/O any test results I find that going with the Aero bike I find that it's a bit faster, but that probably just in my mind.

Anyways picking this bike up makes me want to ride even more than before. If your on the fence just go to your LBS and test one out.

seypat

It's about money. It's always about money. How much you want to spend to buy these real or perceived advantages that are discussed in these threads. That is what it boils down to. Aero, crabon, power meters, Di2, blah, blah, blah. It always comes down to how much you are willing to spend to have a better ride. A better ride is different for everyone. There is no right answer. So,..............................................................................

****.

RChung

Hubris, mostly.