I feel cycling is the biggest rip off money wise and who makes it?
07-29-14, 02:47 PM
#176
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That is called "Open Mold". It means that any company can order products made with that tooling. There could be adjustments but the factory owns the design and the tools (molds). There are several wheel brands using the same Chinese open mold carbon rims and just putting their decals on them. A few admit it and a few try and lie. .
Not like it matters at this point but yeah I started the thread to complain sort of. But I was wondering with certain product we buy, maybe, just maybe they come out of the same factory but yet one cost double the price. Or maybe, just maybe say the china carbon wheel is the exact same quality as just to use an example, say a boyd wheel. Or maybe the boyd wheel is same quality as zipp say to to make an example up.
So yeah if my ( again just making names up). Cannondale bike is using the exact same frame as a huffy but the huffy is 1500 less, then yeah I may feel ripped off I don't think the man is getting me. I don't care what anyone buys or rides. I am tryijg to educate myself so I don't go drop 2500 on a open mold wheel say that is the same as the 400 dollar china wheel It's as simple as that.
Also in terms of me *****ing or sayijg the sport is expensive, I think you have been involved in it and are use to it. Go tell people that are new in the sport what your bikes cost or what the 10 pound trek cost Or what a pair of high end shoes cost. We all know what their reactions are. To us it's normal but it is pretty shocking if your not use to it.
Last edited by PhotoJoe; 07-29-14 at 04:53 PM. Reason: fixed quote code
07-29-14, 02:49 PM
#177
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Marianne Vos would've won the UCI CX Worlds on a Huffy, and that's a fact.
The marginal gains between an 800€ alloy Btwin with SRAM Apex and a 8000€ S-Works with Campy EPS are shockingly low. And Nibali would've won the TdF on either.
People can and should spend their money on anything they want. But the fact is, in bicycling, an additional 1000€ only offers you a negligble performance improvement.
But it's all over now, the companies won. It's an equipment sport now, not a participation sport. Cash buys anonymous recognition and credibility. Now, where are my Sidis and Rapha jacket...
The marginal gains between an 800€ alloy Btwin with SRAM Apex and a 8000€ S-Works with Campy EPS are shockingly low. And Nibali would've won the TdF on either.
People can and should spend their money on anything they want. But the fact is, in bicycling, an additional 1000€ only offers you a negligble performance improvement.
But it's all over now, the companies won. It's an equipment sport now, not a participation sport. Cash buys anonymous recognition and credibility. Now, where are my Sidis and Rapha jacket...
I would admit there is a certain amount of snobbishness going on, but based on the comments I see in the forum, that seems to go both directions. But, hey, thats life.
Last edited by don59047; 07-29-14 at 03:02 PM.
07-29-14, 03:04 PM
#178
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Your head must be made of carbon fiber ! Steel doesn't explode 
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07-29-14, 03:36 PM
#179
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So back in mid-70s I rode a Nishiki Olympic. Here are the specs from another post on this site. Per that I guess I paid $120 for it at a non-LBS department store.
So lets crank up the inflation machine and see how much money that is equivalent to now. A rough estimate of the inflation-adjusted equivalent is $620.84 in today's dollars according to that site. Lets call it an even $620.
Seems to me I can still get a pretty reasonable bike for that amount that is heads and shoulders above that Nishiki I loved so much. Weight, quality of parts, resiliency of tires... Here is a random bike from the Performance web site that has an inflation-adjusted equivalent price. (Not an LBS I know, but at the time I was shopping at the local department store sporting good section, so I think it the moral equivalent. There are probably much better bikes in that price range too, but I don't shop that range these days and didn't want to spend more time on this post to do the research.) Here is a random Cannondale for similar price at REI that seems nice too.
The only thing that had gone to pot in that time is the quality of the engine choices I have available.
I could not afford a really high end bike with all Campy parts in those days, so can someone remind me of what high-end bikes cost then. Lets then do the same math.
I get amazed when I go by the nearest Performance Bike store or web vendor and look at the prices. When I look at the inflation-adjusted value I get for parts similar to those I bought then I am amazed. Now I know that PB is not a LBS, but even there things don't look too bad.
So lets crank up the inflation machine and see how much money that is equivalent to now. A rough estimate of the inflation-adjusted equivalent is $620.84 in today's dollars according to that site. Lets call it an even $620.
Seems to me I can still get a pretty reasonable bike for that amount that is heads and shoulders above that Nishiki I loved so much. Weight, quality of parts, resiliency of tires... Here is a random bike from the Performance web site that has an inflation-adjusted equivalent price. (Not an LBS I know, but at the time I was shopping at the local department store sporting good section, so I think it the moral equivalent. There are probably much better bikes in that price range too, but I don't shop that range these days and didn't want to spend more time on this post to do the research.) Here is a random Cannondale for similar price at REI that seems nice too.
The only thing that had gone to pot in that time is the quality of the engine choices I have available.
I could not afford a really high end bike with all Campy parts in those days, so can someone remind me of what high-end bikes cost then. Lets then do the same math.
I get amazed when I go by the nearest Performance Bike store or web vendor and look at the prices. When I look at the inflation-adjusted value I get for parts similar to those I bought then I am amazed. Now I know that PB is not a LBS, but even there things don't look too bad.
Last edited by don59047; 07-29-14 at 03:54 PM.
07-29-14, 04:38 PM
#180
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So let me see if I understand what's going on:
1) Cycling equipment, like pretty much every other commodity, follows the law of diminishing returns;
2) Cycling equipment seems to have a long upper tail. For comparison, when I started playing tennis, I bought a good racquet for $120 but would have been hard-pressed to spend more than 3X that, even for top of the line. Similarly, good tennis shoes were $60, top end ones are <$180. Cars are more like bikes: I got a nice Mazda 3 for $18K, but it's easy to spend $180K (or more) for top of the line.
3) As Dr. Pete points out, we cheap folks benefit from the high-end buyers underwriting the R&D that improves quality up and down the product line.
4) As with tennis, driving, and pretty much everything else, top-end equipment can only help mediocre ability so much.
5) If you're at the top of the game, every small advantage matters, so it's worth it for the pros to pay $$$ for the advantage that gives them the winning edge (and, hence, $$$ in return).
6) If you're not at the top of the game but buying top-end equipment makes you happy (and doesn't impact your family's ability to obtain food and shelter), then enjoy! And thanks for underwriting the R&D!
Did I miss anything?
1) Cycling equipment, like pretty much every other commodity, follows the law of diminishing returns;
2) Cycling equipment seems to have a long upper tail. For comparison, when I started playing tennis, I bought a good racquet for $120 but would have been hard-pressed to spend more than 3X that, even for top of the line. Similarly, good tennis shoes were $60, top end ones are <$180. Cars are more like bikes: I got a nice Mazda 3 for $18K, but it's easy to spend $180K (or more) for top of the line.
3) As Dr. Pete points out, we cheap folks benefit from the high-end buyers underwriting the R&D that improves quality up and down the product line.
4) As with tennis, driving, and pretty much everything else, top-end equipment can only help mediocre ability so much.
5) If you're at the top of the game, every small advantage matters, so it's worth it for the pros to pay $$$ for the advantage that gives them the winning edge (and, hence, $$$ in return).
6) If you're not at the top of the game but buying top-end equipment makes you happy (and doesn't impact your family's ability to obtain food and shelter), then enjoy! And thanks for underwriting the R&D!
Did I miss anything?
07-29-14, 04:41 PM
#181
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So let me see if I understand what's going on:
1) Cycling equipment, like pretty much every other commodity, follows the law of diminishing returns;
2) Cycling equipment seems to have a long upper tail. For comparison, when I started playing tennis, I bought a good racquet for $120 but would have been hard-pressed to spend more than 3X that, even for top of the line. Similarly, good tennis shoes were $60, top end ones are <$180. Cars are more like bikes: I got a nice Mazda 3 for $18K, but it's easy to spend $180K (or more) for top of the line.
3) As Dr. Pete points out, we cheap folks benefit from the high-end buyers underwriting the R&D that improves quality up and down the product line.
4) As with tennis, driving, and pretty much everything else, top-end equipment can only help mediocre ability so much.
5) If you're at the top of the game, every small advantage matters, so it's worth it for the pros to pay $$$ for the advantage that gives them the winning edge (and, hence, $$$ in return).
6) If you're not at the top of the game but buying top-end equipment makes you happy (and doesn't impact your family's ability to obtain food and shelter), then enjoy! And thanks for underwriting the R&D!
Did I miss anything?
1) Cycling equipment, like pretty much every other commodity, follows the law of diminishing returns;
2) Cycling equipment seems to have a long upper tail. For comparison, when I started playing tennis, I bought a good racquet for $120 but would have been hard-pressed to spend more than 3X that, even for top of the line. Similarly, good tennis shoes were $60, top end ones are <$180. Cars are more like bikes: I got a nice Mazda 3 for $18K, but it's easy to spend $180K (or more) for top of the line.
3) As Dr. Pete points out, we cheap folks benefit from the high-end buyers underwriting the R&D that improves quality up and down the product line.
4) As with tennis, driving, and pretty much everything else, top-end equipment can only help mediocre ability so much.
5) If you're at the top of the game, every small advantage matters, so it's worth it for the pros to pay $$$ for the advantage that gives them the winning edge (and, hence, $$$ in return).
6) If you're not at the top of the game but buying top-end equipment makes you happy (and doesn't impact your family's ability to obtain food and shelter), then enjoy! And thanks for underwriting the R&D!
Did I miss anything?
07-29-14, 04:41 PM
#182
Senior Member
Oops… I missed two things:
1) Name brands cost more than off-label, but it's the name brands that do the R&D while off-labels copy their designs; and
2) Carbon fiber asplodes.
1) Name brands cost more than off-label, but it's the name brands that do the R&D while off-labels copy their designs; and
2) Carbon fiber asplodes.
07-29-14, 04:49 PM
#183
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07-29-14, 04:52 PM
#184
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Well, I'm probably stretching it, but Homebrew did say:
"Your head must be made of carbon fiber ! Steel doesn't explode"
Besides, no 8-page thread in BF is complete without a warning about CF's explosive tendencies.
"Your head must be made of carbon fiber ! Steel doesn't explode
"Besides, no 8-page thread in BF is complete without a warning about CF's explosive tendencies.
07-29-14, 04:54 PM
#185
Portland Fred
Also in terms of me *****ing or sayijg the sport is expensive, I think you have been involved in it and are use to it. Go tell people that are new in the sport what your bikes cost or what the 10 pound trek cost Or what a pair of high end shoes cost. We all know what their reactions are. To us it's normal but it is pretty shocking if your not use to it.
With regards to your specific concern of dropping a lot of money for a name that doesn't necessarily get you more value, that's all about being upfront about your interests, cycling goals, and budget. A lot of celebs are photographed riding bikes most of us wouldn't touch, mostly because they only ride a few miles and their primary concerns are comfort and looks.
Even though they could easily drop $25K on a bike, the bike that's best for them might well cost much less than a grand. Likewise, people without much money might ride an expensive bike, but that doesn't make it stupid. Historically, my bikes are worth more than the car that my wife and I drive. She's cool with that even though she's not a cyclist because the bikes get a lot more use than the car.
If you want to achieve certain specifications for the lowest price possible, that's only a matter of asking questions and doing a bit of research.
07-29-14, 06:18 PM
#187
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and yes alot of it is over priced. but women do the same with shoes and kids do the same with video games lol. we are obsessed
Last edited by calgarc; 07-29-14 at 06:22 PM.
07-29-14, 06:44 PM
#188
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If I'm being honest, there are some items at the top end I think are over-priced. There were some wheel price increases recently from a major manufacturer that I thought were over the top. It does happen but the industry as a whole doesn't run that way.
07-29-14, 06:47 PM
#189
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There is a lot to be said for getting what you want.
I remember the last time I was in the market, I told people I didn't want a good bike -- I wanted THE bike.
I doubt very many people actually believe they can buy speed. The way life works out, you typically can't afford much when you have the legs, and you won't have the legs when you can afford the really nice stuff. So people without dough can feel good about dusting people on fancy rides, and the people with high end zoot can enjoy that. Everyone is happy.
I remember the last time I was in the market, I told people I didn't want a good bike -- I wanted THE bike.
I doubt very many people actually believe they can buy speed. The way life works out, you typically can't afford much when you have the legs, and you won't have the legs when you can afford the really nice stuff. So people without dough can feel good about dusting people on fancy rides, and the people with high end zoot can enjoy that. Everyone is happy.
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"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
07-29-14, 06:53 PM
#190
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I take issue with that statement. Performance has brick and mortar stores in many cities. Yes they are a chain and do a big internet business, but their stores in Houston are LBSs to me.
07-29-14, 07:02 PM
#191
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I think the truth in this is really what a lot of people don't want to admit. Last weekend at a local crit I was volunteering to help register the last minute folks. There were really nice bikes and wheels in the mix and I have NO issue with people spending big money on what they want.
One guy approached the table pushing his 2006 CAAD8 with with a group that's about three generations old now. The bike was stock other than the saddle. I know people here love to say that other people don't care but I did notice the looks he was getting from the guy's on the S-Works and such. I also heard one guy say to another "he can't be serious, he just came to participate".
Ok, I have typed enough and I don't want this to be to long, he (guy on CAAD8) won the race no problem. As the other guy's were coming back to get results I heard commenst like "I had a bad day" and "This course sucked". It's all funny to me really.
One guy approached the table pushing his 2006 CAAD8 with with a group that's about three generations old now. The bike was stock other than the saddle. I know people here love to say that other people don't care but I did notice the looks he was getting from the guy's on the S-Works and such. I also heard one guy say to another "he can't be serious, he just came to participate".
Ok, I have typed enough and I don't want this to be to long, he (guy on CAAD8) won the race no problem. As the other guy's were coming back to get results I heard commenst like "I had a bad day" and "This course sucked". It's all funny to me really.
I've won races on my CAAD8 with an old groupset.
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07-29-14, 07:36 PM
#193
Senior Member
With a no-name brand, you have no idea how the product was built. With a no-name brand, you have no idea how strictly they test their product (if at all). With a no-name brand, you likely have no guarantee either because their likely isn't any sort of company standing behind that product.
07-29-14, 07:48 PM
#194
Senior Member
I didn't know the guy, very well could have been you. It was this bike, completely stock, no deep carbon wheels. When I think back, he didn't have a computer on the bike, no cadence sensors, nothing. He didn't speak very much either. He went out and won the crit with clean wheels, no real challenge.
But hey, like the other guy's said, they just had a bad day and the organizers picked a lousy course
But hey, like the other guy's said, they just had a bad day and the organizers picked a lousy course
07-29-14, 07:50 PM
#195
Portland Fred
To keep everyone else from feeling inadequate, I simply ride slowly in the presence of others. Also, I added a couple 'bents to my stable
07-29-14, 07:54 PM
#196
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07-29-14, 08:31 PM
#197
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__________________
"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
Last edited by DrPete; 07-29-14 at 08:34 PM.
07-29-14, 08:36 PM
#198
Uber Goober
07-29-14, 08:58 PM
#199
Still kicking.
07-29-14, 09:00 PM
#200
Still kicking.