danallen

Noticed a Change in the Performance of the Non-Drive Side Bottom Bracket Bearing

There is a development in the bottom bracket on a 2009 Trek Madone.

BACKGROUND
A few weeks ago I started a thread about the first service I tried on the bottom bracket which happens to be a bb90. All I did was remove the non-drive side crank and observe the ball bearing cartridge was dry inside and unsealed. It also was gnarly when the axle was turned by hand without the crank arm attached. The result of that thread for me was recognizing the need to replace thew bb bearings. Link to that thread.

NEW DEVELOPMENT
Last night, demons were being slaughtered somewhere on my bike. I determined this based onthe bike emitting, as I peddled, near deafening, blood-curdling screams from more than one voice suddenly crashing the quiet of my ride.l The sound came from the non-drive side bearing cranks bearings. The crank arms were practically falling out of the bike. I walked the bike home.

FROM MY WORKSHOP
The bearing cartridge had come apart. Ball bearings are rattling inside the frame.

I ordered replacement steel ball bearings. I am not sure what sized balls are needed or how many, so I ordered the variety ball pack from Remo's . I am not certain I can reassemble the cartridge, given the condition of the cartridge pieces, some of which are shown in the images below.

My biggest worry is the possibility of damage to the cup built into the frame that holds the bearing cartridge on the non-drive side. The drive side bearing cup looks ok.

Except the first picture, these pictures all are from the bottom bracket on the non-drive side. The drive side bearing appears ok.



This bike is the best thing that ever happened to me. Last time I had bike before this was 40 years ago, in college. I cannot believe how fast this bike goes, even with me on it.



Non-drive Side, bottom bracket (bb90) in frame

Non-drive Side, bottom bracket (bb90) in frame

Inner bearing cartridge ring stuck on crank axel.

shelbyfv

Lots of words in that other thread but I guess it didn't work out. Probably time to take it to a shop.

Buzzkill53120

The bearing cartridges are totally trashed, you can't reuse them. The idea of using loose balls bearings in them is simply foolhardy.The bottom bracket spindle may be damaged given that the inner bearing race is stuck or seized to it. This looks like a job for your LBS.

mprince

Lots of rust - no surprise the bearings exploded...good luck getting the remainder of the original bearing out, getting things cleaned up and pressing in new bearings.

Looks like you rode in the rain (a lot) and water got trapped in the bb shell shell against the bearings.

danallen

I did not know riding in the rain is a problem. 7We do not get much rain here, but every month or so, I would be out in heavy rain.

I was only kidding about rebuilding the cartridges.

Buzzkill53120

So what's the point of your post? You got a lot of advice in your earlier one, why bother with this one.

znomit

Lets see if we can get to page 3

Andy Somnifac 

Riding in the rain isn't necessarily a problem. It's letting water sit inside components afterward that's the problem.

shelbyfv

TIME FOR AN UPDATE,CAN'T WAIT TOSEE WHAT HE does NEXT!!

datlas 

It's kinda late for this, but in the future better to update the previous thread.

Looks like a big hassle. I am so glad I have a threaded BB. I got about 45K miles out of it, started to notice some mild resistance, took out old BB and put in new BB, easy-peasy.

sfrider 

Did the disintegrating bearings, scaling, and whatnot damage the shell? If not, out with the old, thoroughly clean and inspect it, in with new, and ride it.

Bob the Mech

I assume this is one of your ebay finds... 2009 Madone by any chance. It's a little beat up... Anyways, the failure of the BB appears to be a complete failure of regular inspection and maintenance. It's literally been run into the ground. Can't put the the blame wholey on your goodself. I dare say the previous owner didn't venture too deeply in to pocking around the bottom brackrt shell.

There is limited servicing that can be done to a press fit bottom bracket without the proper tools to exract and re-insert the various components. It's not however a 'fit and forget' item. Water, dust, grit and grime gets pulled in and this is the result. I inspect mine about three times a year (depending on mileage and weather conditions) for bearing play, wear to the crank axle and to give it a bloody good clean. Prevention is the best cure. It's a hard lesson learn...Bikes need a little TLC every now and again

Given the bb is shot, it's well worth your time to check the headset and if the wheels are ones that came with the bike, check the bearing in those too.

colnago62

Given the amount of damage, I wouldn’t be surprised if the frame will need an oversized bearing kit and some superglue.

danallen

I will be lucky to get away without sending the frame to the factory or wherever it goes to fix that part of the frame. I have been improvising with shims I came up with. I think a non-factory fix might be a hopeless cause.

I know there are more aggressive locktites that can be used. When I thought of superglue, I imagined that leading to further damage to the frame when the bearings come out next time.

danallen

I am not sure what you mean by the shell. The bearing seats into the frame, with nothing between the outside of the bearing and the frame, except the bit of space that is not supposed to be there.

danallen

I guess my next serious move is oversized bearings. Maybe that will do the trick. I have had minor success with shims I stuff between the bearing and the frame. Very thin shims. I would estimate the thickness of the shims in multiples of the thickness of a certain brand of duct tape I have around the house. I used it for measuring the thickness of the shims. I will make a photo and post it.

danallen

Here is my thought about using a layer of duct tape to make the OD slightly bigger.

It might create a snug bearing when first put in place.

Then, I thought, "what is difference between duct tape and an over sized bearing?
ANSWER 1:When first installed, duct tape shim on outside of the bearing has an advantage of being more moldable, allowing it to fit into an irregular seating cup in the frame.
ANSWER 2: the extra diameter on the oversized bearing is made of STEEL. The extra diameter provided by duct tape is made of a material I suspect is less durable under load than steel.

I just ordered the oversized bearing

gsa103

Why do you need shims? Just install new bearings. You're making this way more difficult that it needs to be. Nothing in the pictures indicates that you have a frame issue. If the bearings are too loose, green Loctite.

danallen

I appreciate your view of how this problem is simple and appears solvable in a straight forward way. When dealing with problems I have not seen before, I tend to go after in a complicated way, until a eureka moment occurs and I see the simple way to understand and deal with it.


I have been trying shims to approximate a press fit. The damage to the bearing cup built into the frame (sorry if that is the wrong terminology) is enough that when the bearing is in position, it can move slightly up and down. I was thinking there is no way that loctite can hold a bearing in place if there is room for jiggling.


My current thought is the oversized bearings might work, but if the damage is only in the vertical directions, I would need a bearing with out OD bigger in one direction than another. I think it is worth giving the oversized bearings a try. I will try the stronger loctite too, as you suggested.


I have one other idea. Gorilla glue comes out the bottle about like corn syrup, but as it cures, it bubbles and expands to fill gaps. When dry, it is toughj material. The worry would be when the day comes that the bearings have to come out of the bike, getting them out of the bike without damaging the frame. That glue is strong, but it does not stick great to some surfaces. Maybe a slight layer of oil or something inside the frame's bearing cup. with Gorilla glue on the part of the bearing where the fit is loose would cause a weak bond between the glue and the frame, but fill in the gap between the bearing and frame with strong material to hold the bearing in place, so it won't move around, but not stick so much to the frame, to avoid damage upon removal of the bearing.


What do you think of all this?


The right side is all good. The left side is loose.

znomit

This is really getting into LBS territory. They have the best glue and huge hammers.

Kimmo 

Back when I worked with carbon, we had a release agent we sprayed onto moulds and formwork. Some sort of silicone spray would probably do it. As for the glue, you want a two-pack epoxy, preferably with some sort of filler like talcum powder.

The hard part is making sure your crank is square while the glue sets.

mstateglfr 

I dont understand any of this thread.

Your bottom bracket is ruined. So replace it.
Just take it to a shop and ask them to replace the bottom bracket.

Why are you talking about duct tape shims and gorilla glue?

Psimet2001 

I'm flabbergasted by it. This is beyond making sense.

Your BB is toast. You rode it until you destroyed the cartridge bearing and it came apart. Replace it. Because it's so torched you have to remove the inner race that's still in the BB shell. Take it to someone with the right tools.

IF........if the frame is oversized now then there is an oversized bearing kit. that all of us shops can easily get to compensate for that issue.

Don't glue anything. Don't use shims. Right tool, right job. Let the pros do it and it will take far less time, will be done right, and end up costing you less than what you're spending on the wrong parts, glue and shims.

smashndash

The thread OP linked is from 2 months ago. He says he replaced the cartridge bearings with new ones. I cannot believe that a modern sealed cartridge bearing could rust SO badly in 2 months that it would literally disintegrate. Imagine if your front wheel bearings (which are smaller) did that. What is your use case? Do you do river crossings daily?

EDIT: I guess I misunderstood. The bearings were never replaced despite the fact that you recognized they were toast? Also, with all due respect, the fact that you recognized that problem and still rode your bike until the bearing disintegrated makes it hard for us to assume you aren’t serious about trying to rebuild a rusted out cartridge bearing or using duct tape to increase interference. Or were you serious and just said you’re joking to save face?

Duct tape will not make your bearings “slightly bigger”. Duct tape is about 0.2mm thick. You’d be adding 0.4mm to the diameter of the bearing. Trek’s oversized bearings are 0.1mm bigger in OD. The range of interference levels across the entire ISO standard, from loosest possible to tightest possible is about 0.13mm. If you can genuinely fit a bearing into the frame with duct tape around the bearing... the frame is probably toast.

Also the wallowing out of the shell has nothing to do with the bearing disintegrating. It would take an extraordinary amount of mileage for your bearings to even get rough from a small amount of movement in the shell.

The oversized bearings are a good start. The next solution is to try the BB3724C3 from Token. Thread together, oversized version. If that’s not good enough then you ask Trek to repair the shell by adding carbon. If that doesn’t happen you talk to carbon repair specialists. If that doesn’t happen you trash the frame and join the rest of the people who have been screwed by BB90.

GlennR

Ah.. .duct tape.

I suggest that instead of trying to MacGyver'ing it, you talk to a real bicycle mechanic and not make things worse.

But i get the feeling you won't listen to me or anyone.