P!N20

Yep - get a 10 speed crank.

clubman 

If you can find some good wheels, this is an excellent Campy indexed group. 8 speed ergo was very robust.
I would try to find the wheels first. (or concurrently)

P!N20

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html - Although that only goes up to 10 speed.

I think the spacing has crept up to 135mm now, but that's more to do with disc brakes and thru axles than sprocket clusters.

RiddleOfSteel

126-130mm spacing on a steel race frame is a non-issue, so there is no need to cold set unless you really want to. About a million of us have or currently run 130mm axles in 126mm rear-spaced frames with no problems. 120-130mm spacing yeah, cold set that for sure.

Miele Man

I had Syncro on one of my old bikes. Can't remember if it was Syncro 1 or 2. I do remember it took a lot to make a shift and each shift at the lever was LOUD.

Cheers

63rickert

Early Campy Ergopower shifters were amazingly durable. Finding them might take some effort, they will be cheap and good when you do. Early Ergo was also quasi-friction and worked fine with freewheels. Ergo began 1992 so somewhat appropriate to a late 80s bike. The real problem is continuing to find clean 8 or 9 speed cassettes. Patience.

tNuvolari

So I received my Record 10 speed FD. It's pretty! And in pretty good condition too. It has a bit of of wear on the painted silver body but the chrome cage is very nice and the internal wear on the cage is very minimal. I did some research and I guess it is a 2001 or 2002 model. I'm leaning towards a 2002 10 speed build as the parts are readily available and fairly inexpensive. And I really like the titanium cassettes too! And the carbon fiber ergo levers!

Haven't installed the new FD yet as I still need a 26.8 to 32 shim to make it fit. I had to source a Shimano shim for this so I hope you guys don't think poorly of me for using Japanese parts. Only kidding as I know a whole Shimano index system would be cheaper and probably work better and easier....

And some pics of the new sculpture and my old original FD:

tNuvolari

More questions:

From what I've read, I should stay away from 2010 and newer due to Powershift which does NOT allow multiple shifts? Is this accurate? That would mean that I'm looking for Ultrashift or Micron. And then there's Quickshift....Arghhh, is there a site that explains all of these names and compatibility?
As of now, I'm looking for 2001-2010 Chorus or Record. What else should I know regarding these years and models? I've read most any tier of Campy's groups in this period is a well made and durable choice. And then later years, they started using more plastic on the lower tiered group sets but Chorus and Record are still a good choice.

Also, I've read that 10 and 11 speed cassettes will both fit on 11 speed hubs--is this correct? Of course, the derailleur, levers and cassette should all be the same speed but the 10 and 11 hubs have the same spacing and mounting pattern. What about 9 and 12 speed hubs? Are they different?
I ask because hubs and/or wheels are the toughest thing to find in a given speed, or at least in 10 speed but now that I think 11 speed will work too, it opens up a lot more options in used parts.

Mackers

2007 and newer. That's when the lower tier groupsets moved to Powershift. Xenon, Mirage, Veloce and Centaur all became PS. Funnily enough though there were and are many concerns about durability I am still running a set of 2007 Centaur Ergos just fine. In 2009 when Campagnolo moved to 11S the 10S Centaur Ergos were briefly identical to Record and Chorus, just with a 10S disc. They are rare and expensive.



All Campagnolo 9/10/11/12S cassettes will fit the 9S design. Campy has however changed their lockrings several times. If you find a wheel with a 9 speed era hub you MUST make sure it comes with the appropriate lock ring, The lock ring that comes with later cassettes will not fit. Replacement lockrings are very hard to find and very expensive. Also be aware that not all older wheels will work with 11S though the cassette will fit. The cassette may interfere with the spokes or the slightly taller lockring may interfere with the insides of the cassette body.

nomadmax 

A true cyclist's bike is worth more than their car

PilotFishBob 

After I got hit by the semi in St. Louis last year the first thing I did after I'd gathered my wits was to climb out and check the Paramount on the rear rack. Was upset and angry that the car was totaled but relieved the bike was unscathed. And that I was still breathing - that was good too.

tNuvolari

Thanks for the heads up regarding lockings, I hadn't heard about that.

Ha, many hours of love and patience have been spent on that Alfa. Bought for $150 off Ebay with a bent valve engine, I removed engine and then spent about 4 years carting it around Los Angeles with no engine while I sourced parts and worked on it. But now it's been running great for about 8 years (knock on wood!) Such a great car and maybe I'll learn body work/paint one of these days....

Ouch, stay safe and glad you're around to comment in my post!

Update:

I found a Chorus 10 speed RD for cheap on this very forum's classifieds so that should be arriving this week. It is sold without pulleys so I'm assuming standard Campy 10 speed pulleys are the way to go? Or is there any advantage to 11 or 12 speed pulleys?

Another question I have is regarding cables: are Jagwires any good and do they fit Campy brifters? Or just stick with Campy? My bike has old school cable routers along the top tube for the rear brake. Will modern cable fit?




And I've read that the plastic cable router under the bottom bracket is important for proper index shifting. What's the best way to deal with my metal routers as I'm not sure the Campy piece will fit in between the metal guides? Or am I ok just using the metal guides? I hate to start pulling and prying metal bits off my bike. Other option could be cutting the Campy router and making it fit....


And one final question: How will my new Chorus RD work with my current friction shifters? I honestly don't mind friction shifting but as I'm getting older (53 now) I find myself a bit less stable on a twitchy Italian road bike so keeping hands on the bars/hoods and being able to shift sounds like a great idea to me! I have to say that these eighties Campy derailleurs are working great! I don't remember them being so quick and easy, of course with the usual over shifting and trimming. The FD is a bit slow and I have to hold it and apply pressure until it shifts.but the rear is fairly quick and accurate. Oh, well, I can always downgrade back to my old set up....Just kidding as I'm sure I'll be blown away with index shifting on the handlebars!

tNuvolari

wow, installed the new FD and what an improvement! I didn't expect an improvement I could really feel but with the Record FD, it almost feels index shifting. I just flip the lever and, "blip," new chainring! With the old FD, I would have to hold it against the resistance, enough resistance that it was tough to keep the bike steering from twitching offline.

I'm really looking forward to the RD now! I'll try it first with the friction levers and then buy some ergo drifters when I find a deal.
Oh, I managed to find a Tiso 10 speed Campy cassette. I couldn't resist the price but not sure if it's durable enough to run everyday. It supposedly only weighs 140g with the lockring. And it's a 12-21 so no hills for me! It's fairly flat where I ride so I can deal with that for now but I'm not strong enough to ride any hills with that gearing. Might end up selling for a wider choice....

Anyone know anything about Tiso? Their site has some really cool stuff at pretty high prices. I got this cassette for less than any other cassette I've ever seen so I figured I couldn't resist.


And some pics:

Also picked up some new Cinelli cork tape in natural which is my new favorite color for any leather or similar product. Embarrassed to say my dingy white tape was installed around 1989 or so. And with new Ergo levers coming soon, I figured saving the old tape was pointless. And got an insulated CA state flag bottle as I'm a big believer in the insulated bottle now. Also a bike helmet mirror and a small saddle bag. Oh, and almost forgot the Kool Stop pads....Yay, delivery drivers!

ltokuno

I've heard of lots of problems with synchro DT shifters. I had a set that I think are a little different than most. These are index only but worked flawlessly for years with a chorus RD and shimano 7 speed cassette. Note the tensioner knob thing that's not present on most synchro's you'll see. I started playing around with different index rings and got these to work with a regina 6 speed freewheel and victory RD. Works better than I would have guessed. This could be an answer for DT shifting.

P!N20

That's actually amazing for several reasons; those Record shifters were made for 8 speed, so the barrel is larger so each 'click' takes up more cable. Did you have a 7 speed insert in them?

Technically they weren't Syncro (1 or 2), but they used the same workings as Syncro, so they're closely related. I'm assuming yours are the two spring version?

I've got a pair and I love them...except for one small detail...I CAN'T GET THEM TO WORK!!!! I can't get them to hold low gear, it just jumps straight out. Even in second-to-low gear, if I put substantial load on the drivetrain (like, climbing a hill) it will jump out of gear. And here's the annoying bit - my 8 speed Ergo levers, which effectively have the same indexing mechanism, work flawlessly. How does that work?

So you might think the G-springs need replacing, and while I haven't purchased new ones, I compared the ones I had with new ones and they were identical in size, so I don't think that's the issue. I even put aluminum shims behind the G-springs to try and get more bite, but no dice.

I actually had them running in friction mode for a while - you can remove a thin washer which effectively disengages the indexing, but after a while they would slowly lose tension, so you'd be riding along and 'ker-clunk' you'd be in a higher gear without touching anything.

So what was my solution? I bought some Syncro 2 dual mode shifters which I run in friction mode. They're great, but they don't look as good as the Record shifters and due to the smaller barrel it's a 180 degree turn to engage low gear. I've never really tried the index mode as it only has a 7 speed insert and my bike is 8 speed. I did try to put the 8 speed insert into the Syncro 2 shifters, but due to the smaller barrel size it didn't play nice.

I still want to get the Record shifters working, but I don't know what to do next. I'm contemplating buying some Veloce 3 spring shifters just to see if they work. I stay awake at night wondering if I got a different pair of the same model shifters, would they work or not?

ltokuno

Awesome. Now I kind of know what I have. Mine have the two springs in them, and an 8 speed ring in side.
I ran a 7 speed shimano HG cassette. The key here is the spacing for the cogs is the same for Campagnolo 8 speed, 5mm. The overall cassette width is actually the same if you remove one cog from the Campy 8. All I had to do was adjust the RD limit screw for the largest cassette and the lever cannot push the RD into the spokes. It never clicks into the next position on the index ring because the RD limit screw stops it. The RD movement ratio just worked out I guess. I spent a little time getting the cable tension right using the RD barrel adjuster, and had to adjust that over time.

When I changed to ergos on that bike, I changed out the spacers to make it work. The ergos were moving the RD too much going from the second smallest cog up to the third smallest cog. Adding a 1mm spacer did the trick. After that it was just a matter of getting the cable tension right, but I had the DT cable stops to help out. Made the job easier.

The G-springs are really the only thing holding the RD in gear. They work by putting tension on the ring divit which keeps it in place. If there's not enough tension then they can ghost shift into another gear. Since it's easier to go down the cassette they do that instead of up. A shim wouldn't really provide tension, and probably not work well in the little space there is. The shim would need to bend the spring quite a bit to get some good tension on it.
The size of the spring will not tell you the force it produces for two different g-springs. As they get used the steel fatigues and gets more elastic, the strength decreases. This would be tough to measure using physical dimensions. It's possible the springs are identical in size and shape but one pair is worn, and weaker. I imagine you could rig something to test the spring force using some form of accurate distance measure and known weights.
In short I'd change the springs. I think Campagnolo treated them like a kind of consumable.


Yeah I could see where trying to put enough tension on the mounting screw would be troublesome. If it's too tight it's hard to shift.



The cable pull ratio wouldn't be high enough to shift from one cog to the next on a smaller diameter shift barrel. Also it's important the the RD movement to cable pull ratio be inline with what the cassette spacing is. The whole system has to be pretty pretty precisely matted. This is the problem the J-Tek solved.

P!N20

Yeah good point, I should probably just get some new G-springs and see what happens. I remember when I changed the G-springs in my Ergo levers they were definitely 'flatter' than the new ones, but yeah, I didn't think about fatigue.

tNuvolari

Behold the new to me Chorus 10 Speed RD on the bike now, although still with my old 6 speed freewheel and friction levers. It actually does shift better with a much lighter throw. And there is almost no trimming required. I think if I were to keep the friction levers, I would instinctually learn to the exact amount to move the lever for perfect shifts. Honestly, I would love such a system but I just don't like the reach for the levers. Not that it's horrible, especially with the newfound lighter effort and easier shifting, but still, when you're tired and riding, that reach down is just extra effort that doesn't feel comfortable or stable. I think brifters are just so much better for efficiency and safety, as well as simplicity. Hmmm, how about friction brifters?

Anyway, more to come. I found a 10 speed right brifter for fairly cheap so that's on the way. Now, I just need a rear hub or wheel for 10 speed cassettes. I really like my old wheel which is a 32 spoke Athena hub with Campy Omega Aero Hardox rim and after the 10 speed conversion, I won't use this wheel anymore so I'm thinking of just finding a 10 speed 32 hole hub and rebuilding my wheel with the newer hub. I've been reading up on building wheels myself. Has anyone out there tried building wheels themselves? How difficult is it? Worth a try or don't mess with it? I've read some online sites that say it's fairly easy and can be done without even any truing or dishing stand and others that say the opposite.

And onto the pics. Oh, I bought the RD without any pulleys so waiting on those but they probably won't even work with my old 6 speed chain. The cage bolts are too short to accommodate the older chain so I used the bolts and pulleys from my old 980 RD and behold the hybrid Chorus/980 6/10ths speed!

Oh, and by the way, none of the new components is lighter than the old stuff. They weigh nearly the same as their older counterpart. I had hoped to save some weight as the brifters are going to be much heavier than the old levers.

P!N20

I’d say the majority of the C&V community have built their own wheels. I think it’s something every cyclist should do at least once - it gives you an appreciation of what a wheel has to endure, as well as the skills required to repair them.

You can build a good set of wheels with nothing but a spoke key, but obviously the more tools and guides you can employ the better the outcome will be. The first set of wheels I built were trued in the frame and they’re still going strong. I use a spoke tension meter, but some people just pluck the spokes and can adjust by the sound. It’s an activity that requires patience and shouldn’t be rushed. There are a number of excellent guides out there: The Bicycle Wheel, Sheldon Brown, The Art of Wheelbuilding...read up before you dive in.

Looking at your photo you’ll need new cables. The sharp bend into the derailleur is a high friction point.

ltokuno

That cable bend has a big effect on index performance.

tNuvolari

No index yet, still on friction and new cables coming soon....

RiddleOfSteel

...and hopefully with its friend, Cable Housing. They make a great pair!

CyclingFool95 

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Back in 92 I bought a Pinarello with original 1st gen 87 Chorus. In 93 I switched it over to a full Chorus 8 speed group. Last year, I rebuilt it with that hideous ahead stem adapter shown below - didnt seat properly due to the SLX flutes in the steerer. I just received early gen, all silver 10 speed Chorus Ergos and front and rear derailleurs from the Bay and will be building it up again over the next few weeks, and going back to the Cinelli quill stem and bars. I recommend picking up a Campy cable set - you can get them from Merlin or maybe Excel Sports down around $40 - gives you all the bits you need, and they work quite well - never tried Jagwire to compare though.

SJX426 

CyclingFool95 - So thats what my Pinarello should look like! There is a pearl like translucent finish on this scheme that has totally degraded on mine. Speaking of which

tNuvolari - Be careful about the ergos When you get to 10 speed, they get expensive. There are several versions, most notably BB System and QS system. I decided to keep my Pinarello as an 8V bike. It is just fine with the exception of the lower gear that is lacking. Here is a picture of it now that reflects the description above. Oh and it has a 9V Chorus RD.
CConversion95, on Flickr

CyclingFool95 

I replaced my Chorus 42/53 Crankset with a Stronglight Impact 34/50. It's a 9/10 crankset and works fine with the 8 speed chain. And, I have a 13-26 cassette so gearing isnt a problem. The only reason I'm getting away from 8 speed is wheels - I have extra, lightweight wheelsets in 9/10/11 and just a couple of older pairs of Chorus/Mavic wheels in 8 speed. Okay, lame justification but why not.