Turns out clipless pedals no better than flat pedals
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What system do riders like Danny Hart use? (rhetorical question) Doesn't look like he uses flat pedals (he doesn't). Yet he rides some pretty rough stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfMQdFGTKAs
Cheers
What system do riders like Danny Hart use? (rhetorical question) Doesn't look like he uses flat pedals (he doesn't). Yet he rides some pretty rough stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfMQdFGTKAs
Cheers
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It never would have occurred to me that there was any particular skill involved in riding on flats as I have done it all my life so it just seems natural. But so many people are posting that they have no confidence in their ability to stay on the things and that they hurt themselves when they use them that I'm now reconsidering that. Apparently, it's difficult for some people not to bang their shins with their pedals. Who knew?
Interesting you mention stoplights because (and I know this will sound like boasting, but it's true) in an urban setting, I am consistently faster starting on a stoplight than just about any non-motored vehicle I encounter-Stomping onto a big flat pedal gives me a big jolt of power that I don't think I could get if I had to clip in. Again, I don't really know that as I'll never ride clipless. But it really wouldn't at all surprise me if a habitual clipless rider wasn't as good starting on a flat pedal simply because they haven't got a start-up routine suited to the pedal style.
My suspicion has been that there's almost no difference, and my dad always said that the most heated arguments are generally about things that don't matter. When things matter, most times the "right" answer is obvious.
One thing I've noticed about these arguments is that it's going to be impossible to settle them by any kind of study because no one can agree on who the test riders should be. If all pro-level cyclists train a particular way, it only makes sense that they'll be better at that than they are the way they don't train, so it's really not likely you're going to get a group of elite road riders who are as adept at riding on platforms as they are clipless. And if you use average amateur riders, people will say that the lack of difference is because they're not good enough riders to realize the advantages of clipless (or spinning, or whatever).
The second thing I've noticed is that the safety arguments on both sides sound like unmitigated BS to me. Nothing is perfect, but they're both safe.
Interesting you mention stoplights because (and I know this will sound like boasting, but it's true) in an urban setting, I am consistently faster starting on a stoplight than just about any non-motored vehicle I encounter-Stomping onto a big flat pedal gives me a big jolt of power that I don't think I could get if I had to clip in. Again, I don't really know that as I'll never ride clipless. But it really wouldn't at all surprise me if a habitual clipless rider wasn't as good starting on a flat pedal simply because they haven't got a start-up routine suited to the pedal style.
My suspicion has been that there's almost no difference, and my dad always said that the most heated arguments are generally about things that don't matter. When things matter, most times the "right" answer is obvious.
One thing I've noticed about these arguments is that it's going to be impossible to settle them by any kind of study because no one can agree on who the test riders should be. If all pro-level cyclists train a particular way, it only makes sense that they'll be better at that than they are the way they don't train, so it's really not likely you're going to get a group of elite road riders who are as adept at riding on platforms as they are clipless. And if you use average amateur riders, people will say that the lack of difference is because they're not good enough riders to realize the advantages of clipless (or spinning, or whatever).
The second thing I've noticed is that the safety arguments on both sides sound like unmitigated BS to me. Nothing is perfect, but they're both safe.
#103
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Nah, I'm just responding to your "FWIW, I use both flats and clipless on both my road/gravel and MTBs. I don’t really see one as inherently better than the other outside of timed competition" bit.
It's a fact that clipless are inherently better for many folks outside of timed competition.
It's a fact that clipless are inherently better for many folks outside of timed competition.
So how can something be inherently better for some and not others?
Just curious how you are using that term.
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I agree the safety argument is thin. I and many others just find clipless more comfortable. The difference between the two pedals when starting out or sprinting (flat or uphill) is that you can apply additional torque while pulling up with a clipped in foot. It's very easy to observe with a powermeter. As far as clipping in at a stoplight or the start of a race, the time required is negligible and more than made up for if someone is trying to accelerate quickly.
As for the power boost on the upstroke, the whole point of the OP video is that's negligible at best. Those muscles are too weak to power much of anything.
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BF is now like pandemic cable TV... reruns, reruns, reruns.
Just use the pedal of your choice and go for it. If your ride partners are triggered by your choices of clipless pedals, flat or platform pedals, or toeclips, get new partners. If you feel you are not efficient enough, ride more.
Just consider, for some, the OP is probably right. Some may change their mind and feel like experimenting or (heaven forbid) just not really care, as they are enjoying riding their way.
We are in a hobby/activity/lifestyle that is gaining many new members who will hopefully become fans and continue. Hopefully, they will not be turned off by the little boxes that are rampant in cycling.
Just use the pedal of your choice and go for it. If your ride partners are triggered by your choices of clipless pedals, flat or platform pedals, or toeclips, get new partners. If you feel you are not efficient enough, ride more.
Just consider, for some, the OP is probably right. Some may change their mind and feel like experimenting or (heaven forbid) just not really care, as they are enjoying riding their way.
We are in a hobby/activity/lifestyle that is gaining many new members who will hopefully become fans and continue. Hopefully, they will not be turned off by the little boxes that are rampant in cycling.
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See, but I think that misses an advantage that a flat pedal user has--when I start on a light change, I actually jump on the pedal in a very non-precise way and accelerate very fast from the get-go. I'm not racing, so I have no idea how it compares to how an elite rider would do, but compared to other street riders, I'm taking off very fast.
As for the power boost on the upstroke, the whole point of the OP video is that's negligible at best. Those muscles are too weak to power much of anything.
As for the power boost on the upstroke, the whole point of the OP video is that's negligible at best. Those muscles are too weak to power much of anything.
The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.
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Jumping on the pedal is good for half a revolution. What about all the other revolutions before you're up to speed?
The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.
The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.
You're missing the point, that half revolution jump starts (literally) me back to speed much quicker than if I don't do it. My cruising speed is in the 20s, I don't think I'm losing a lot of power by using platforms.
And "sprinters do x" is completely irrelevant to me unless they're engaged in 100 mile sprints.
Enjoy your pedals, I really don't care to continue this.
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Jumping on the pedal is good for half a revolution. What about all the other revolutions before you're up to speed?
The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.
The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.
Cheers
#110
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Clipless pedals allow you to get more power to the drivetrain by pulling up. That matters to some people, and not to others.
Also, Once in a while on shallow climbs, I give my quads a short break by pulling up more instead
Also, Once in a while on shallow climbs, I give my quads a short break by pulling up more instead
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Jumping on the pedal is good for half a revolution. What about all the other revolutions before you're up to speed?
The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.
The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.
If you care only about efficiency and have no desire to engage in max sprint efforts, flats are great - and yes, I can produce a decent sprint on flats, I'm just even faster clipped in.
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I was just trying to be a turd for the sake of the funny. I wasn't really serious. I've ridden an e-bike before at Fallbrook Tech out in Austin and some solid size platform pedals were welcomed on our ride to lunch.
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And for a lot of urban areas, road riding where there are a lot of traffic lights is going to look a lot more like that scenario than sprinting or open road riding.
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Well, at 5 pages and over 120 posts, you have to judge this as a successful troll. I wouldn't have predicted it, seems like the last one was just yesterday.
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I use flats on my commuter when I'm there. Hop on, hop off, shopping etc. I can use clipless very quickly, seconds in and out but for urban commutes I don't wear cycling shoes.
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I'll concede that if your goal is to get the jump at stoplights, maybe flats are better. That's not riding, that's how a ride starts or finishes.
Casual leisure cruise out of town, 2-6miles, followed by 30-100 miles of open road and gravel, other than potty breaks, I might not remove my foot from the pedals for several hours at a time. Return to the stifling heat of town and again, leisure cruise home, extra careful not to do something stupid in my weakened condition.
Or same idea but I drive to start, so I'm very possibly clipped in the entire ride unless I need water or snap pics.
Enjoy jumping at the stop light, I think I'd quit riding if that were my reality.
Casual leisure cruise out of town, 2-6miles, followed by 30-100 miles of open road and gravel, other than potty breaks, I might not remove my foot from the pedals for several hours at a time. Return to the stifling heat of town and again, leisure cruise home, extra careful not to do something stupid in my weakened condition.
Or same idea but I drive to start, so I'm very possibly clipped in the entire ride unless I need water or snap pics.
Enjoy jumping at the stop light, I think I'd quit riding if that were my reality.
#118
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As usual with such questions on this forum, the gear choice really comes down to personal preference. Nothing wrong with that, and it's good to hear all the various views.
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We well know that everyone on the internet is a model of fitness, efficiency and expertise. Once you get off the internet and get out riding with mere mortals, you don't see as many of the purported benefits of clipless coming into play. I'll touch on one such example. Sprinting up to speed from a stop. The laser like speed and the surgical precision all of our clipless riders here employ seem to be largely absent taking off from stoplights on group rides. The A and B group heroes can often best be described as "fumbling" trying to get their foot clipped in.
Last edited by Paul Barnard; 07-02-20 at 04:09 PM.
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#120
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I'll concede that if your goal is to get the jump at stoplights, maybe flats are better. That's not riding, that's how a ride starts or finishes.
Casual leisure cruise out of town, 2-6miles, followed by 30-100 miles of open road and gravel, other than potty breaks, I might not remove my foot from the pedals for several hours at a time. Return to the stifling heat of town and again, leisure cruise home, extra careful not to do something stupid in my weakened condition.
Or same idea but I drive to start, so I'm very possibly clipped in the entire ride unless I need water or snap pics.
Enjoy jumping at the stop light, I think I'd quit riding if that were my reality.
Casual leisure cruise out of town, 2-6miles, followed by 30-100 miles of open road and gravel, other than potty breaks, I might not remove my foot from the pedals for several hours at a time. Return to the stifling heat of town and again, leisure cruise home, extra careful not to do something stupid in my weakened condition.
Or same idea but I drive to start, so I'm very possibly clipped in the entire ride unless I need water or snap pics.
Enjoy jumping at the stop light, I think I'd quit riding if that were my reality.
Exactly the obvious kind of condescension I thought people were smart enough to avoid. I do all of the above you describe on platforms, except I skip the leisure rides and drives, and my distances are often quite a bit longer than yours.
I live in a fairly small city so I can get out into the country pretty fast. I stop at lights and stop signs, but I do the urban part fast as well, nothing leisurely about it. When I do ride the areas with stoplights, it's usually at the very beginning or in the middle of a much longer ride. Not doing it right now because of COVID, but I have often ridden the 38 miles from where I live to the Boston area where I'll ride around a bit before going home.
I didn't bring up the stoplight thing, someone else suggested that clipless was better for stoplights, and I don't happen to agree with that. You just conceded that I'm right about that. Thank you.
I've done well over 500 miles of riding in the last three weekends, and all without any break lasting more than a few minutes (and those were primarily because of high heat and humidity). I'd suggest maybe you should revise your stereotypes of who rides what kind of pedals a bit.
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I find these debates of who can get stuck at the next stoplight sooner to be kind of entertaining.
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#122
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Hey, if you can figure out how to get a signal light-changing device on a handlebar, you could probably make a fortune selling it on the dark web.
Is there a bar anywhere called "The Dark Web"? Not a good time to open a bar, but if there isn't, there really should be.
#123
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Clipless is only more efficient if you modify your pedal stroke to take advantage of being attached to the pedal.
Once when I was still riding uprights and had flat pedals, I was on tour and it was a rainy day, so I wore my water shoes rather than get my tennies wet. I'll never do that again! I was about crippled by the end of the day!
Once when I was still riding uprights and had flat pedals, I was on tour and it was a rainy day, so I wore my water shoes rather than get my tennies wet. I'll never do that again! I was about crippled by the end of the day!
#125
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Try slip resistant shoes. I am currently using sketchers and the souls allow you to dig your shoes into the pins. I never slip.