clubman 

So I've had a stamped 58 and 59 and there's a 57 in this thread. Anyone seen a 55?

Salubrious

I've only had 3 SW hubs. I really liked the gear range! My understanding is it was the pawls that caused the slippage (failure to engage too) and yes, cold weather made it worse. That led me to think that the lubricant was really important, and a lot's happened in lubricants since then. I seem to recall that if you replaced the pawls with new ones the slippage was reduced as they were critical in that regard. But I never fiddled with it so your experience is vastly greater than mine. I'd love to have one of those that was as reliable as an AW. Have you been able to achieve that?

SirMike1983 

I gave up on the SW. The last one I had was so bad I ended up re-building the wheel with an FW. It just would not shift reliably, and would not stay in gear reliably. The FW, on the other hand, is a great hub. That SW was a 1958 model.

browngw 

Back in 2015 when I posted the acquisition of my dropbar 71 Robin Hood Sports model, clubman posted this information. I had heard that there was a Korean shop that was selling Dunelts and Robin Hoods in Toronto from some participants at The Canadian Vintage Bicycle Show. Maybe the same place?
"Groves Cycle operated on College St near Kensington up until around 2004 (in Toronto). Two sweet Japanese Canadian brothers had owned it for over 30 years and still had NOS Dunelts and Robin Hood 3 speeds hanging on the walls for about $150. One possible source for your bike. Raleigh always provided club style "racers" to the commonwealth partners in NA."

JIMBO53

I can certainly see that working, too. My premise was based on the fact that the original fork was bent from pressure on the fork ends, driving the fork backwards. I'm trying to reverse the initial accident physical force in incremental controlled ways to slowly pull it into alignment. I haven't had any issues with deformed races or bending the forks in other places. I mad sure the headset was tight to prevent any unequal stress to the headset. I did remove the fork and checked the crown, how the fork tips were welded and if any voids were there. Checking the fork with a straightedge indicated the fork was stressed at the point where the blades are welded into the crown, so I paid attention to this area as I was applying pressure with the turnbuckles.
This is just another way to skin the same cat, and was a cheap rig to solve a common problem.

clubman 

Bingo. That shop was a treasure trove of bike history. A few lucky people got in there but the majority was put in a container and sent to Cuba iirc. These guys were so old that the one brother had a picture of himself with Torchy Peden at a six day race in the Gardens. Probably around 1940. I bought quite a few lovely parts from them but they wouldn't let anyone in to browse around. I mentioned my interest in the 'sixes' and he went in back and came out with this Major Taylor stem still wrapped in factory paper. $15.

JohnDThompson 

I have one that is modified in the manner described on Sheldon Brown's web site. The flat springs under the pawls do provide reliable engagement of the pawls, but the springs themselves are wear items; as the pawl moves on the spring, it eventually erodes through it and the spring will no longer ensure engagement of the pawl. That's as close as I've managed to getting an SW as reliable as an AW.

cudak888 

Would it be possible to drill the pawl ring to accept a small coil spring under the pawl instead?

-Kurt

oldlugs

I had a Norman around 45 years ago that had an SW hub. At that time I was in School and using the bike to deliver newspapers in a very rural area. I bought the bike cheap, it was stuck in first gear when I got it, someone had disconnected the shift cable and taped and wired the indicator in place. For my purposes then it was just fine. I rigged it with two huge baskets, one front, and one in the rear.
(The rear basket was actually parts of two steel shopping carts we cut and modified an mounted to an old steel rear rack). The bike was heavy, it was a tall frame, but was in fairly clean condition back then. I used the bike for about 6 months only in first gear, for what I was doing it worked out fine. For some reason I decided to hook up the shifter again and make it work as it was intended to. When I did, I found out it had a nasty habit of slipping in 3rd gear without warning. The first day out with the shifter went fine till I stood up on the pedals and ended up in the dirt. Thinking it was a shifter adjustment issue I played with the adjustment a bit, that only made it worse.
There were no bike shops around, certainly none that knew anything about the insides of an SW hub.
I re-rigged it to stay in first, and looked for another bike, when I found a replacement, all the baskets got swapped over to the new bike, an older Columbia with an AW hub. That bike never gave me any problems, but I still wanted to fix the Norman to have as a spare.
I removed the wheel, took apart the hub and what I found looked like something you would sweep up on a machine shop floor at the end of the day. I soaked it all clean, hosed out the hub shell and got all the metal shavings out, then I cleaned up each and every part.
All three right side dogs were in pieces, one had split on an odd angle and wedged in place, one was missing most of its leading edge, and the third was just a battered bit of steel floating in the hole where it sat. The teeth that they engage were worn, but worse yet, they were spread or tapered. The whole ratchet tooth part was flared out, making it impossible for the pawls to engage it squarely. It sat apart for a year with no clue where to find parts for it. This was the mid 70's or so, and parts even then were scarce. I got lucky one day and came across a Dutch ladies bike with 24" wheels that had the same hub, the bike looked like brand new and I got it for pocket change.
I gutted that hub, only to find out they're not all the same. The shift indicator was different, instead of the two piece rod mine had, this one had one like an AW hub. The planet cage was different too, there was a big lip next to the dogs, that sort of acted as a backstop or guide. The toothed cup was also heavier. I flipped all the dogs over figuring that the unused edge would catch better, and put the whole mess into my wheel. Then I screwed up. I oiled it with the same 30w motor oil I always put in my other hubs. I got it all back together, and it worked great, but the next morning, it was 30°F outside and the thing did nothing but slip and carry on in high gear and it didn't want to shift. Back apart it came, when I took it apart I didn't see any problems at all, but I sprayed everything out with brake cleaner and put it back together. It didn't take me long to figure out that it didn't like motor oil. After the third time apart and an hour messing with adjusting the shifter cable, I finally cleaned it all out again and oiled it only with some light penetrating oil, doing so though meant putting a bit of sealer on the bearing cup threads so it didn't leak out. The thing worked great, I ran that bike for the next 3 years delivering newspapers, then I used it for four years in school, and later on it became my transportation at our summer home in the 90's.
About 20 years go I dug it back out and gave it a try and the thing wouldn't engage at all. I tore it apart, cleaned it all up and re-lubed it. A month later I noticed a crack in the frame right where the cross tube attaches to the right chainstay. It was bleeding orange rust there and when I went to clean it up to braze up the crack, I spread the chain stays apart a bit and the other side cracked too. Both chain stays were badly rusted from the inside out. I pulled the wheels, forks, all the small parts and trashed the frame. I sold the wheelset and most of the other small parts on fleabay 15 years ago. All in all, the SW hub was a problem but once it was clean and healthy, it did work so long as you shifted carefully and kept it clean with thin oil in it. It certainly wouldn't have ever been my first choice but I refused to give up on it. The bike came with an SW hub, and it died with one. If I had taken better care of that bike or maybe not used it like a truck most of its life, it would likely still be around. It was my first of many English three speeds. I wouldn't go out of my way to find one with an SW hub but I wouldn't refuse one for it either. With patience they can be made to work if you have good parts.
Mine was dated 55-10, the one I parted out had a missed date stamp and only a small mark and an 11 was visible. I can't say what year that one was, I didn't save that shell because of the low spoke count. It likely went to the scrap yard right after I pulled the hub apart. I think the only thing I saved off the bike was the hub internals, the crankset, and handlebars.

A few things I do remember about the SW hub is that when shifting it, you had to be coasting, and it helped to rock the pedals fore and after a bit till you felt it shift solidly. If it didn't go clunk into gear, it was about to slip. Once it was 'in' gear, it was fine. You couldn't just mindlessly shift it like on an AW hub, you had to consciously and firmly shift gears being careful to listen and get the feel for whather or not it was safe to put pressure down on the cranks. It did become second nature after a while but back then I didn't know any other three speed so I took it as normal till I bought the Columbia with the AW hub in it.

My Norman was likely a 1955 or 56 model, it had the Chainwheel that spelled out NORMAN, it had a wide chainguard, the forks were like those being called Birmingham here. The headbadge was a shield of sorts with a warrior on it.
One of the things I did have to change on my bike was the chain ring and rear sprocket, it was badly worn by the late 80's or so, I found a used Armstrong at a church fleamarket up in Philly one weekend and I used that for its crankset and rear sprocket. That bike was a mess otherwise with a tacoed wheel and bent frame so I took what I needed and let it go. The AW hub on that bike was dated 62-10, it had the same forks as my Norman, although the steer tube was shorter, and the same cranks as the Dunelt in previous posts here. I saved that hub, its around here somewhere. I think the rim was junk, but the hub is probably in a bucket out in the shed somewhere.

2fat2fly

What I was wondering was if they ever completely stopped making the AW during those years?
How about the coaster brake 3 speed models during those years?
If the SW came out in 54 or 55, then they likely continued to make the AW hubs too, I have one here dated 9 of 1956.
Keep in mind that other brand bikes used SA hubs, I don't recall ever seeing a Schwinn or any American bike with an SW hub, just the English bikes.
It must have just been an option on some models?

2fat2fly

I was thinking the same thing, a small hole would be less metal removed vs. cutting a long slot across the whole part in three places.
Something along he lines of the tiny spring found in a 1/4" ratchet wrench, the question is whether or not there's enough depth. It also looks like the
drive dogs need to rock fore and after to work, so the spring would need a ball on top so as not to be pushed off center or pinched.
When I look at this thing, it gives me the impression that the minute there's a little wear, only one pawl will engage the teeth, its relying mostly on gravity for the dog to drop
into the teeth, when dog is on top, it lays flat and doesn't touch the ratchet teeth. On this one here, the parts all look good, but without some drag from the oil to 'bring up' the dogs as they pass the teeth on top, only one tooth makes contact without it having a good bit of centrifugal force applied as well. It probably didn't work well at slow speeds, without the thing spinning at speed when it shifts, it rarely catches more than the one dog at a time just working the the thing in my hand. I can see where this will need very thin oil, anything oil that ads any cling ability will hamper its operation.
Looking at how this works, my first thought was that someone probably got fired over this thing back then.

thumpism 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...54166395756970

barnfind

I always got the impression that the SW was a Raleigh thing only.
I've got a 1957 Schwinn Deluxe Racer that belonged to a family friend since new that has an AW hub, as far as I know, the bike has never been touched.
I don't recall ever having an AW marked 1957 though, but I have had 56, 58, and 59 AW hubs in the past, but those were likely all 36h off of American bikes.


As to adding springs to the SW, I've run across a few with the flat spring modification done, all were working but had significant wear to the tips of the dogs. Unless I was doing a museum type restoration for historic purposes or display, I would not use an SW hub. They are finicky at best even when their working right. They don't shift well, they don't last, and can't take any abuse, and cold weather is their enemy. The engineers really dropped the ball on the SW, and they knew it and gave up on it. I've sold a few over the years on eBay, they always sell and collectors grab them up but I would think they were for display more than to use. About 16 years ago I did a clean out up in NY and came away with about 8 SW hubs that looked brand new but without packaging. My guess was that the shop removed them day one and stuck them on the shelf. There were another 15 or 20 of them that were stripped for parts. I sold every last one of them on eBay. I think I may still have a few used one's laying around but not intentionally.

barnfind

There likely isn't enough metal under the dog to have room for a coil spring, there's only about 3mm of stock under the dog.


From the web: J-turn: Overhauling a Sturmey-Archer SW 3-speed Hub

markk900

To add to the SW/AW discussion, according to Tony Hadland (who seems to be *the* authority on Sturmey Archer history), his notes on the SW start with "About 1954/55, Sturmey-Archer withdrew the AW three speed...[and] was replaced by the SW...". Withdrew implies not making them anymore, however later Tony notes: "...the decision was made to cease production of the SW and reinstate the tried and trusted AW. In 1958 the AW returned to the range and by 1960 the SW, like a bad dream, had all but vanished." This implies no AWs between 1955 and 1957 (inclusive).

All sounds good except that I have a bike with a 56 AW, and barnfind also has a 56 AW. So it does appear that while the marketing department wanted to see the SW replace the AW it appears that AWs continued to be available during the "blackout". My opinion is that as the poor reliability of the SW made itself known in 1955 and into 1956, manufacturers demanded supplies of more reliable hubs and the factory either used up spares or started up the AW manufacturing in 1956 while publicly pretending the SW was still going to make it. Its telling that it took until 1960 to stop making the SW even after the AW was reintroduced officially.

I got my quotes from Hadland's book "The Sturmey Archer Story".

gster

I wonder if it was a perceived engineering improvement or
a cost cutting measure (fewer parts)?
Whatever the thinking, it certainly backfired.
I have 3 NOS 1953 AW kits at home.

markk900

gster I suspect cost cutting as the new hub was smaller, easier to assemble, etc. So I think the intent was to simplify and save money.

cudak888 

There's an endless build thread that I started on this one, but thought I'd share the final results. @pastorbobnlnh saved this 1980 Sports from his "Stump Dump" 15 years ago and sent it to me.



Unfortunately, it never seemed to have the right "fizz," and it had to compete with my 1951 Sports "C" Tourist in a matter of months.

Two years ago, I toyed around with some ideas to fix the uninspiring feeling of this thing, and finally embarked on a complete modernization - while remaining faithful to what a Sports should look and feel like.



Build list:

• Fork spread to 100mm, dropouts filed, internal cable routing in steerer tube
• Rear triangle spread to 130mm, BB drilled to accept internal cable routing and retapped to 24tpi
• Upturned and de-badged Soma Sparrow handlebars
• Sturmey-Archer BLS92 brake levers (EU market only)
• Arai-badged Tektro 800A front brake caliper, black - fender tab forward of the fork crown to clear
• Tektro 900A rear brake caliper, black
• Generic three-compound MTB/V-style brake pads w/holders
• Shimano DH-3N31-NT front 6V 3W hub
• Shimano Nexus 8-speed SG-C6011-8R rear hub (still waiting on roller brake dust cap)
• Rigida (Van Schothorst) brushed-finish 26x1-3/8" aluminum single-wall rims (from a late-1990's Ammaco Monte Carlo UK-market hybrid)
• Sapim spokes
• Microshift SL-N758 shifter
• Motsuv Hollowtech outboard-bearing MTB crankset, 48t ring
• SR short reach, long quill stem
• Pletscher Esge ultra-lightweight rear rack (probably good for carrying barely anything)
• Dutch-style front headlight mount from a Union Polycarbonex city bike
• Cheap Chinese headlight that doesn't work right
• LimeBike fender taillight/reflector
• Spanninga Pimento XDS 6V generator taillight
• Generic 1-1/8" downtube cable clamps
• 5mm shifter cable (to fit the cable clamps)
• Peter Kohler's Lee Healey UK-made reproduction 1950's-era bullet grips
• Spin dual-leg kickstand with XPT between-the-stays clamp
• Chen Shing tires that have been on it for the last 15 years and are still holding up, even though I'll probably regret this at some point for obvious reasons.
• Mismatched pedals soon to be replaced with MKS Sylvan Streams

The Rampar decals are also slated to be removed off the fork. They've always looked awful as a rule; these are doubly so from wear.

Definitely the lightest and most responsive Sports I've ever been on. Brakes are also the single best and most comfortable I've ever used on any bike - not just the feel, but the modulation. Pretty sure the levers and the pads are contributing greatly to this.

















-Kurt

Ballenxj

Love it! The way I would want it.

clubman 

exceptional build @cuda888. The black bars with grey grips and silver levers do it for me.

BFisher

Neat build, Kurt. Really cool to see an outboard BB on a Sports.

cudak888 

The grey grips were a last-minute idea. I ordered some black bullet grips off eBay, but I realized they were not soft - enough so that the ribbing through the surface bit into my hand without my even putting pressure on it.

Once I had the levers on the bike, I realized it wouldn't look right to have the center of the bars black, the levers silver, and the ends return to black. I had a spare pair of Peter's grips, and seeing as I've enjoyed them for many years on my '51, it was an obvious choice.

It sounds wild, but it was the easiest way to get a crank that didn't immediately look like a 5-pin, replaceable-ring road crankset, which - IMHO - looks wrong on a city bike; like mags on a Lincoln Continental.

Finding a Raleigh Chopper Mk-III square-taper heron crank turned out to be impossible. When I saw this crank on Ali Express, it made sense. Too bad that lettering won't come off.




-Kurt

clubman 

They're the finest, most comfy grips I've ever used. What brand of bars?

cudak888 

Right-side-up and de-badged (easy with Goof Off) Soma Sparrows. The 520mm version. They're also overpriced little bastards, but have a pleasing-looking bend.




-Kurt

2fat2fly

Dunelt on fleabay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LADIES-1960-VINTAGE-DUNELT-BICYCLE

LADIES 1960 VINTAGE DUNELT BICYCLE Made In England 3 speed - EXCELLENT CONDITION
Starting bid:
US $1,999.00
Price:
US $2,599.00 Buy it Now



When I see stuff like this it makes me wonder if all their selling is a bicycle. Do ads like this ever really get a buyer?
(If that thing is worth $2500, my men's version has to be worth double.)