The Need for Basic Bikes
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Right kind of idea and probably something more middle-class consumers should consider.
But better still if it was out there in volume, used simpler brakes, $300 or under, and available for cash to the unbanked to who need to ride something home from the store that day so that they can get to work in the morning if not later that night.
It's about getting the clueless consumers and the critical economic transport need purchases away from the unfortunate BSO's and towards a slightly simpler version of that, which would need to be made comparable available. The difference between $200 and $300 is bad enough, the difference between there and $500 plus needing a credit card, stable address, and ability to wait is huge.
But better still if it was out there in volume, used simpler brakes, $300 or under, and available for cash to the unbanked to who need to ride something home from the store that day so that they can get to work in the morning if not later that night.
It's about getting the clueless consumers and the critical economic transport need purchases away from the unfortunate BSO's and towards a slightly simpler version of that, which would need to be made comparable available. The difference between $200 and $300 is bad enough, the difference between there and $500 plus needing a credit card, stable address, and ability to wait is huge.
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Part of why I was arguing for a community partnership was to market the virtues of a sound basic bike, vs a more common featuritis bike that looks fancy in the store display.
Also Walmart isn't in the NYC utility cycling market Streetsblog was talking about - Target is now, though may not have been at the time.
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Right kind of idea and probably something more middle-class consumers should consider.
But better still if it was out there in volume, used simpler brakes, $300 or under, and available for cash to the unbanked to who need to ride something home from the store that day so that they can get to work in the morning if not later that night.
It's about getting the clueless consumers and the critical economic transport need purchases away from the unfortunate BSO's and towards a slightly simpler version of that, which would need to be made comparable available. The difference between $200 and $300 is bad enough, the difference between there and $500 plus needing a credit card, stable address, and ability to wait is huge.
But better still if it was out there in volume, used simpler brakes, $300 or under, and available for cash to the unbanked to who need to ride something home from the store that day so that they can get to work in the morning if not later that night.
It's about getting the clueless consumers and the critical economic transport need purchases away from the unfortunate BSO's and towards a slightly simpler version of that, which would need to be made comparable available. The difference between $200 and $300 is bad enough, the difference between there and $500 plus needing a credit card, stable address, and ability to wait is huge.
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#30
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By shipping them as pallets of components instead, you save some costs in kitting and packaging, and you make it easier to deal with individual bad componets rather than dumpstering the whole thing. Then, you don't actually build them in the back room of the store, but partner with a community organization to build them, while providing practical training and honorable employment to teens or disadvantaged adults struggling to find work. You could hang a builder bio card about how someone is turning their life around from the handelbar when its done - social virtue is a real product selling point. Essentially you combine the store's experience in getting things manufactured and shipped over, with the community organization's experience in getting assembly and adjustment right, propagating skills, and generate good press and feelings.
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As for the article: I could barely make it through. The first 2/3rds, in particular, is very scattershot, but basically explains that there are no good bike options for people with small budgets; the latter 1/3rd makes the pitch for bike coops as a solution, though I can think of several much more efficient and efficacious solutions, some of which could exist alongside bike coops.
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Most of us aren't buying bikes because we want to help out local teens or adults trying to get their lives in order
the bikes coming from this venture need to be priced competitively but of better quality than the Walmart bikes
and that is a very tall order.
Plus the partnerships that are getting them assembled having a role in calling attention to them as a good choice.
Last edited by UniChris; 03-24-21 at 01:48 PM.
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I agree I wouldn't buy it. but its not a fantasy of a pallet of parts. Its a bike that someone who is poor can just go buy and ride.
this BSO think is literally something that only a elitist group of people would say about things that poor people own and use happily every day.
You can probably go to goodwill or the salvation army and find a much better bike for less money. Every poor person I have ever know is well aware of places to get a bike, they also have all known someone that could fix a bike. Heck the homeless dudes around here basically made their own bike coop at one point until the city shut down their tent city.
this BSO think is literally something that only a elitist group of people would say about things that poor people own and use happily every day.
You can probably go to goodwill or the salvation army and find a much better bike for less money. Every poor person I have ever know is well aware of places to get a bike, they also have all known someone that could fix a bike. Heck the homeless dudes around here basically made their own bike coop at one point until the city shut down their tent city.
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My own firsthand but limited experience with them has actually been better, so ironically in echoing their frustration that there's a problem in need of solving, I'm listening to rather than dismissing their perspective.
What I'm arguing for is that our consumer supply chain should provide a better "feedstock" for those efforts to keep folks who need wheels, rolling on them, by refocusing from what's flashy to what's important.
You can probably go to goodwill or the salvation army and find a much better bike for less money
Last edited by UniChris; 03-24-21 at 02:01 PM.
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Might be worth reading the streetsblog article in the first post, because it's about the coops trying to keep BSO's (and very old better things) going for precisely the people who can't afford anything else.
My own firsthand but limited experience with them has actually been better, so ironically in echoing their frustration that there's a problem in need of solving, I'm listening to rather than dismissing their perspective.
What I'm arguing for is that our consumer supply chain should provide a better "feedstock" for those efforts to keep folks who need wheels, rolling on them, by refocusing from what's flashy to what's important.
My own firsthand but limited experience with them has actually been better, so ironically in echoing their frustration that there's a problem in need of solving, I'm listening to rather than dismissing their perspective.
What I'm arguing for is that our consumer supply chain should provide a better "feedstock" for those efforts to keep folks who need wheels, rolling on them, by refocusing from what's flashy to what's important.
consumer supply chain is probably as good as it will ever get. getting pallets of mid range parts to put on budget bike frames is about as realistic as expecting a person at walmart installing a fork on a bike the right way.
people want the stupid parts that big box stores put on the low end bikes, they dont care if a shock works they just want a shock because "nice" bikes have shocks. as was mentioned farther up its not like walmart hasnt tried to sell a sensible usable bike they have. No body wants a IGH 3 speed bike with fenders and a rack. thats what grandma had.
I see you added about used bikes drying up. Yeah no kidding I was going to mention that about the supply chain thing to but didn't. I mean at this point people with money cant get a bike or parts without waiting. I highly doubt all the manufactures are real concerned with the poor people bikes getting nicer parts by the pallet.
Last edited by sloppy12; 03-24-21 at 02:14 PM.
#36
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I'd bet they aren't as horrible as people here like to say they are. If the big box stores sell a million bikes in a year, how many are totally unrideable? A thousand? 900-thousand? Probably closer to the former than the latter.
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My feeling is that its mis-targeted rather than fundamentally useless.
I want the supply chain know-how that imports the 21-speed BSO to instead commission and import the parts of a solid 1x8 rigid frame, work with a community/jobs program to put them together right rather than have a kid in the back room put the fork on backwards, etc.
In the end I don't see anything wrong with people wanting to buy bikes in department stores, it's more that I want the bikes available there to be a better balance of durability vs. cheese flavoring.
I want the supply chain know-how that imports the 21-speed BSO to instead commission and import the parts of a solid 1x8 rigid frame, work with a community/jobs program to put them together right rather than have a kid in the back room put the fork on backwards, etc.
In the end I don't see anything wrong with people wanting to buy bikes in department stores, it's more that I want the bikes available there to be a better balance of durability vs. cheese flavoring.
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If the big box stores sell a million bikes in a year, how many are totally unrideable? A thousand? 900-thousand? Probably closer to the former than the latter.
How many have immediate mechanical issues that push on-the-fence people to decide maybe cycling isn't fun after all?
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Like I said, probably a lot less than we're led to believe by the conventional wisdom here on the forum.
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Bike co-ops are good. But what is really needed, is a good ole fashioned pick-your-part bicycle junk yard. Junk yards have kept the working class rolling in their cars for all these years, they will do the same with bicycles.
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The distinction would be "cyclists" and "economic necessity utility transport"
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Go to Holland or Japan and you will see the ultimate utilitarian bicycles ever created.
But I sure wouldn't ride one.
The problem is no matter how good your bike is If you don't do the maintenance it's going to grind to a halt. My best friend has been riding around on his dept store MTB almost everyday for over 10 years. But he makes sure everything is greased up. I've had other friends who rode their rather expensive road bikes for a few years without even oiling the chain and get upset when "It doesn't shift anymore". You can't run your car forever without changing oil, so why is it so shocking your bike needs TLC to keep running?
But I sure wouldn't ride one.
The problem is no matter how good your bike is If you don't do the maintenance it's going to grind to a halt. My best friend has been riding around on his dept store MTB almost everyday for over 10 years. But he makes sure everything is greased up. I've had other friends who rode their rather expensive road bikes for a few years without even oiling the chain and get upset when "It doesn't shift anymore". You can't run your car forever without changing oil, so why is it so shocking your bike needs TLC to keep running?
#44
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Go to Holland or Japan and you will see the ultimate utilitarian bicycles ever created.
But I sure wouldn't ride one.
The problem is no matter how good your bike is If you don't do the maintenance it's going to grind to a halt. My best friend has been riding around on his dept store MTB almost everyday for over 10 years. But he makes sure everything is greased up. I've had other friends who rode their rather expensive road bikes for a few years without even oiling the chain and get upset when "It doesn't shift anymore". You can't run your car forever without changing oil, so why is it so shocking your bike needs TLC to keep running?
But I sure wouldn't ride one.
The problem is no matter how good your bike is If you don't do the maintenance it's going to grind to a halt. My best friend has been riding around on his dept store MTB almost everyday for over 10 years. But he makes sure everything is greased up. I've had other friends who rode their rather expensive road bikes for a few years without even oiling the chain and get upset when "It doesn't shift anymore". You can't run your car forever without changing oil, so why is it so shocking your bike needs TLC to keep running?
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Injustice for non-binary people. What ever does that mean?
#46
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The Escape 3 was under $400, the 8 speed Escape 2 just over $400, and the Escape 1 was around $600, and you got 9 speed, and carbon fork. These days, the Escape 3 disc is $550, the Escape 2 Disc is almost $700, while the Escape 1 Disc is $850. Other than Disc brakes they seem to be almost the same bikes.
Besides, even $400 is beyond the reach of 10s of millions Americans and billions of residents of this planet.
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There ya go problem solved. https://www.target.com/p/huffy-men-3...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
#48
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The article specifically talks about how coops get used bikes back on the road. And I've already mentioned at least twice in this thread that the last bike I bought was on the used market. It's not that those options don't exist - and not that they don't end up being one of the more common solutions - rather it's that they are insufficient to fill the need.
Consider that a used bike has to start out new, someone has to buy it, and it has to have enough residual worth after they're through to be useful to ride, fix up, or as a source of parts. Fewer and fewer of the bike-like things sold have that staying power - if it works (as the one I found did) fine, but otherwise who wants the bendy components off a department store bike?
Next realize that the used market has drastically dried up over the past year. Last fall it took me about a week of looking to find something for my nephew. Given that the goal was just to get him from a 20" onto a 24 to break into 20-30 mile rail trail rides while the weather was still nice instead of that step-up only happening in the Christmas time frame in which something new and shiny might have been in the cards, a week of looking was fine. But if instead of enabling recreation for a kid, if the need was for someone who needed to get to their job after their car broke or their previous bike was stolen, a week of searching the used market doesn't cut it.
Used bikes certainly have a place - but by themselves, they're not a sufficient supply for the need, especially when fewer and fewer re-use worthy assemblies are starting into the system.
Given all the effort bike coops put into keeping things going, I'd like to see them have a feed of quality basic bikes to be maintaining, rather that a lot of crummy junk with the occasional "real bike" find or donation mixed in.
Last edited by UniChris; 03-24-21 at 05:25 PM.
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#49
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My own experience with department store bikes has indeed not been bad - the one I had in college in after, and the used one I picked up recently for a relative.
But I don't discount the reports of trouble from others, or that the components are often flimsy and non-standard. Stopped on a trail once to try to help someone put her front brake back together and was a bit frustrated how finicky and flexy the parts were.
But I don't discount the reports of trouble from others, or that the components are often flimsy and non-standard. Stopped on a trail once to try to help someone put her front brake back together and was a bit frustrated how finicky and flexy the parts were.
Untitled by Stuart Black, on Flickr
This particular one was cracked on both sides in exactly the same place. It’s a laceration waiting to happen.
And there is a general reality that coincident with the switch to importing just about everything, we've seen a switch from solid basics to silly features. I can remember in some other contexts as a teenager being frustrated that the "name brands" only offered extras I coveted in the mid to high tier models, while some of the lesser known imports that were coming on the market offered them by default in their magazine adds. It was only when I finally saw some of those products in person that it became clear how crummy they were in terms of their capability to fill the basic need. And I've seen that again and again - the established brand comes with 3 attachments 1 of which might actually be useful, the budget new arrival has 20 attachments all odd and all likely to break on the first or second attempt at use.
There are fairly good bikes out there. They are the lower end bikes at bike shops. But they cost $500 which is a very fair cost and good value. But the uninitiated wants to spend only $100 and they get what they are paying for...basically nothing.
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#50
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Blame those Big Box stores you want people to buy bikes from.
The features that they add are meant to bring people in to buy a bike that won’t do what they are advertising them for.
But there exists another grove where an inexpensive bike can instead be simpler and more durable.
Neither the stores nor the purchasers can alone climb out of one grove and drop into the other; it would have be be an organized effort of multiple players in partnership - stores and their supply chains, organizations like coops to provide mechanical support and education - including why you want the simple one, and not the 21 speed with suspension.
Case in point, over on the streetblog article someone observed:
Originally Posted by SomeCommentorAtStreetsblog
I've worked on many bikes that simply can't be set up to index properly, and that's on just 6, 7, or 8 speeds!
To which I'd simply say, don't use indexed shifting - it's a delicate and unnecessary feature. It never worked right on my college-era big-box MTB, so I just switched it to friction mode and shifted by feel and ear.
Last edited by UniChris; 03-24-21 at 06:26 PM.