Robvolz 

By all three I mean front rim, rear rim and Phil Wood Drag (on rear)

Since we were born with two hands, I'm considering the following options:

1, left hand front, right hand rear, right side bar end shifter connected to disc.

Pros: minimal effort to set up, simple unwrap bar tape a little, instill cable housing and route cable along skinny "mitxe" style tubes to the rear. Parts readily available and serviceable. Since the right hand is used to the rear, all rear activity will still be used by the right hand.

Cons: I've never used bar end shifters before. I can see myself forgetting to engage, and worse, forgetting to disengage, making peeling harder for all. Since this is an all Italian bike, Campy bar-ends tend to not hold it's position. Plus the having to remove hands from a bar in a braking situation is worrisome.


2, Mavic and Modolo make a tandem specific (also useful for those who have lost a limb) brake lever that houses both the front and rear brakes in one lever. I'm picturing the combo lever in the left hand for front and rear and the single in the right hand for the drag brake.

Pros: Since I'm already used to the rear being on the right, and feathering as necessary, the drag brake will be ingrained and natural to use and release.

Cons: Set up will have to be perfect. I normally grab my front a microsecond faster and harder (the front brake is more effective) and feather in the rear as needed. I suppose the cables could be set up so the front engages first by shortening that cable. While I've never used this lever, I wonder if twice the pressure is needed to squeeze it, since it will have twice the resistance.


3, Tandem Specific lever on the right for combo rim and drag, lever on the left for front brake.

Pros: Front brake independent from rear, as I'm accustomed to. Rear brakes engage together or perhaps shorter cable on the rim and longer on the drag so the rim edges first, and the drag only under heavy pulling.

Cons: The drag brake is really only meant to be used on long decent, so the rim brake doesn't create too much friction heat and pop tires (remember, tandem is twice the weight, 2x the friction is needed to stop). I could see this adding too much brake in the rear, causing lock up. Also, wearing the drag brake disc (hard to obtain) premature.

4, Giving stoker control of drag brake through lever.

Pros: stokers have one job, pedal. This can be boring for them. Give them a lil responsibility.

Cons: As captain, I know what's needed and when it is needed. I will have to give up some control and trust it is being used properly, not to much drag, not too little and dammit, disengage when not needed to not make pedaling harder.


What do you tandem heads think?

Robert
Colnago Tandem (1980)
Portland OR

Carbonfiberboy 

So don't use a Campy bar end. But yes, your initial discussion about where to put what sounds good to me, although I like my brake levers to be on the same side for front and back on all my bikes. Since you don't use the bar end to brake for turns, etc. but just as a steady drag brake, you won't move your hands during braking. You may forget to take the drag off, almost for sure, but you'll notice it so quickly that it's not an issue. My only question: I've never used a disc drag brake, only a drum. Because drums are mostly self-actuating due to internal leverage, just the lightest pressure from the cable works fine. I can see that it might take more pressure than a friction shifter can maintain to hold a disc on. You'll have to set up the friction shifter and then experiment on descents to see if that's going to work.

Mike from Iowa

If you're looking to think outside the box...

I have a 1930's tandem with a FOOT operated drum brake...

I let the stoker use it once.
I won't ever make that mistake again.

bwebel

What is the shifting on the bike? I've always wondered about setting a drag brake up to the shift mechanism on a pair of Campy Ergopower shifters. The older models had a nice ratcheting mechanism for the front derailleur that would probably work. But that implies having your front shifting somewhere else.

trashbiker

I think it all comes down to your stoker. I've only had one incident where the stoker pulled the brake in a way that I didn't like and it was when we first started riding together. When we're on a chill ride it really doesn't matter if theres a little extra drag or miscoordiation in downtown streets. When we're out for a longer ride where I would be annoyed with extra drag the braking is mostly gradual and rare so they just brake when I brake and let go when I do. I think its pretty intuitive for the stoker to know how hard to brake if they have ridden a lot themselves, they can feel how hard the captain pulls the brake and are able to gauge how hard they need to pull. I also think its better for the captain stoker dynamic if the stoker has a brake because the stoker is putting a lot of trust in the captain and its nice to feel trust reciprocated.

Carbonfiberboy 

I disagree. Only the captain knows how hard they are braking when they use their conventional front and rear brakes. I tune that braking effort very precisely on long technical descents. I tune it by using the drum and I want that right where I put it. I don't use the drum at all for braking before turns, stop signs, etc. I set it once and usually thereafter I ignore it, though I might need to adjust it if the steepness varies a lot.

TobyGadd

This issue (like most things when riding a tandem!) comes down to the skills of both riders, their ability to communicate, and whether they cooperate & coordinate on the bike. Some teams achieve perfect in-sync flow, while others can barely get on & off the bike without chaos.

While it may be true of some teams that, "stokers have one job, pedal. This can be boring for them," it is far from true for my wife and me. While it's accurate that steering, braking, and shifting are controlled by the pilot, there's a lot more that goes into riding a tandem (or a single bike for that matter!) For example, we've learned over the years that the stoker actually has a HUGE amount of control over cornering and flow, whether riding on pavement or dirt. The more focused and active she is, the faster and more smoothly we ride. She's also the chief radar operator, alerting me to potential traffic threats, other overtaking riders, etc. On long straight sections, there's not really much for either of us to do (although a good pilot is always vigilant), so we chat about sights along the road, life, whatever--which is one of the great joys of tandeming for us. I don't think that either one of us has ever been bored while riding.

All of that said, teams are very different. I completely understand why a pilot with a less-experienced stoker might not want them braking. Likewise, I can see why a more experienced stoker might not trust an inexperienced pilot to shred a steep & technical descent. I very much believe that every team needs to find their own groove, while always embracing opportunities to learn, adapt, and improve.

RoulezTandem

We are low speed riders but added a rim drag brake controlled by stoker for steep descents of our 400 lb gmv setup, to supplement the two manual disc brakes.Verbal communication has worked well for us.

RCMoeur 

One non-negotiable condition set by my wife was control of the drag brake. She uses a lever and says it works fine, even on longer descents.

It did lead to situations on descents where I'd tuck and try to get up speed (which gives her an even better view of the plummeting), and then I'd see the speed numbers start dropping and glance back and see her with a big smile on her face with her hand on the drum lever. We've stayed married in spite of this.

scycheng

My stokers controls the drum brake for 2 reasons:

• She trust me with her life 99% of the time when we ride. Why should I not trust her for that 1% of the time?
• I don't finess the drag brake. We use only 3 settings with the drag brake: light, medium or full. Finessing is done using the rim brakes which I control upfront because I can see what's coming.

mikemelbrooks

We use disc brakes for most of the stopping of our Cannondale, but have a Vbrake operated by a thumb shifter on the stokers handle bar.

SJX426 

Originally, our Burley was set up with drum on the left and rims on the right.
I didn't feel comfortable with the challenge of synchronizing rim brakes on one lever. I am a right front brake guy for 40+ years and so the levers were set up as rim brakes and friction shifter used for the drum.
Burley Cockpit on Flickr

joel1952

I have a Burley with similar OEM brake setup and I am a 50(!) year right lever/front brake guy as well
AGREED, it is difficult to set up one lever to operate both rim brakes appropriately.
So I am wondering
1) do you release the left/rear rim brake to operate the drum?
2) and then you set the drum pressure at an appropriate, fixed setting
3) and then put your hand back on the left lever?

thanks for any information

SJX426 

I apply the drag first for a long down hill and then modulate. If the drag isn't enough, then yeah I do the sequence you enumerated.

joel1952

I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify some brake information.
My experience/research on 50 years of motorcycles and bicycles

Because of the static weight distribution and the weight transfer under braking
a) Single bicycles (and sport motorcycles) 75% of braking is on the FRONT
b) Tandem bicycles (and heavy touring motorcycles) 75% of braking is on the REAR
so one would want to set up a single-lever-front/rear so that the REAR contacts FIRST

A tandem is twice as heavy, so it probably takes FOUR TIMES the friction to stop. (my Physics is old and weak, but for sure this is not a linear relationship between the weight and friction)

bwebel

Can you expand on your thinking here? On ours, and most tandems, the heavier rider is in the front. Why would 75% of the braking be on the rear?
thanks,

Alcanbrad

I believe that there is both physics and muscle memory involved here. Starting with the single bike, the center of mass of the bike/rider is higher and closer to the front wheel relative to the wheel base length. When braking, the momentum of the "system" wants to continue to move forward applying greater contact force between the front wheel and road surface and reducing contact force between the rear wheel and road surface. In the case of a tandem, the center of mass is much further back of the front wheel and lower relative to the length of wheel base with the resulting moment arm length being much longer. Braking on a tandem, therefor would result in a smaller portion of the total braking force to the front wheel, and more to the rear. (Similar effect on a motorcycle since the center of mass is much much lower due to the weight of engine and bike closer to the surface.)

Now the muscle memory comes into effect. Most of us (and I am not saying it's true for everyone) have ridden single bikes with hand brakes and have learned that you do get more braking from the front, and it takes less effort to apply the front brakes due to less loss in the cable run. If you brake too hard in the front, you risk an endo or the front wheel skidding out from under you. Both outcomes are not desirable, so you learn to brake in the rear first and add to it with the front. While you get more effective braking from the front, we are muscle trained to use the back first. Either way we are striving for an uneventful reduction in speed.

As for the tandem and motorcycle, the physics state you get proportionally more braking from the rear than in the single bike case, however, I contend that the muscle memory most of us have developed from riding singles results in greater use of the rear brakes over the front. So for the tandem (and motorcycle) it's somewhat coincidental that we use the rear brake more efficiently than in the case of a single bike.

bwilli88 

My Henry has a dual lever for the front rim and drag brake.

joel1952

The stoker's center of mass is 18 inches in front of the rear tire contact patch
The captain's center of mass is about 36 inches behind the front wheel contact patch
LEVERAGE. The stoker's mass is effectively doubled (roughtly)

Front bicycle tires never wear out because they support much less weight than the rear

Someone needs to put a bathroom scale under their tires while in the saddle :-0

storckm

I'd definitely lean towards your first option. If you don't want a bar-end for the drag brake, a mountain bike thumbshifter might serve.

TobyGadd

No, not really. While weight distribution may affect tire wear a little bit, the vast majority of rear-tire wear is because it receives 100% of the drive energy--where the front tire is essentially passive most of the time.

joel1952

???

TobyGadd

Are you asking a question, disagreeing, or...? Please feel free to clarify, and I'll do my best to respond appropriately.

Leisesturm

Recent post have been ... interesting to say the least. Yikes. It is simply not true that tandems have different braking characteristics than single bikes. Anything that moves, be it a car, bus, motorcycle, single bike, tandem ... whatever it is, when the brakes are applied, there is a weight shift towards the front of the vehicle that loads the front tires roughly 66% more than the rear tires! This very week I have been operating our daily driver tandem without the rear brake because of a rear wheel wobble. I have no trouble stopping our ~400lb GVWR rig with a single front v-brake. Would I try that with only a single rear brake??!! Absolutely not.

All DOT legal automobiles have a single foot pedal that controls all the braking. Because of the already mentioned weight shift phenomena, there is built in engineering that reduces the rear braking force to 33% of the total and increases the front braking proportionately. This prevents the rear wheels from locking up (from being unloaded) as the total weight energy shifts forward. Some motorcycles have experimented with such a system. Mostly large touring bikes and heavy cruisers. Tandems could use such a system to very good effect but it's unlikely most Captains would trust it.

It is true that tandems do not endo, like single bikes, if the front wheel is locked. This is NOT because tandems have 75% of the braking in the rear, it is because the center of gravity of the tandem is so much lower than that of a single bike that instead of a force axis that is over the CoG, resulting in a flip, the force axis of a hard stop is parallel to the CG, resulting in a push force that skids the front tires instead. Front tires absolutely do wear out, because front tires do everything rear tires do. Soft rubber compounds spinning against much harder road surface is going to result in tire wear eventually no matter what.

Leisesturm

That is a most unfortunate setup. Your team is definitely not having a quality experience. Applying the drag brake with every application of the front brake flies in the face of every accepted rule, law or convention governing the operation of tandem bicycles. I'm all for independent thinking but some things are just ... wrong.