orcas island 

This came home early this morning, and I’m a little unsure of what I have here.
I enjoyed talking to the nice seller who was passing this along after purchasing a CF bike for his wife to ride.
He said he’d owned it for about 25 years and that he’d had it refinished approximately 20 years ago in Mountain View, Calif. It was repainted in colors close to the original, after top tube cable guides and bottle cage mounts were added to the frame. He thought the frame dated to the 1960’s.
I can’t find a serial number anywhere (perhaps I’m just overlooking it?), and it doesn’t have the characteristic Cinelli “fastback” seat stay treatment, so I’m having problems finding any matching images.
I’m guessing that perhaps only the headset is original to the bike; clearly the derailleurs and brake levers are relatively recent additions.
It’s currently set up with a 7 speed freewheel and a Campy triple.
The seller included the Campy brake levers, front derailleur, and a Campy wide range Rally rear derailleur which will all go back on the bike.
Do I have an actual Cinelli here, and if so, any guesses on the model or relative age of the frame? Thanks in advance for any insights!

xiaoman1 

To my untrained eyes, based on the lug work and the rear seat stay, I would say no (did early Cinellis have different stays?) ....the real Cinelli experts will certainly chime in.
BTW did the owner say it was a Cinelli when you bought it, he would know the provenance.
Best, Ben
Waiting to see what the experts have to say....good luck.

juvela

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suppose it possible it could have begun life as a Model B

the fork crown and seat stay plugs move it back to where the shell should be 74mm

if shell 70mm then it is likely something else

head emblem appears it may be a replica

the combination of fork crown and seat stay plug appears on a frame in this forum thread...

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-needed-2.html

mystery in this case was sorted with input from no less than MauriceMoss


forum member hazetguy may be able to offer meaningful input here as well...

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hello and best wishes to all of the insularians!
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machinist42

Serial number might be on the underside of the bottom bracket shell.

Crown of forks, lugs, absence of oil port, and forged, (Simplex?), dropouts suggest Model B. Similar seatstay finish found on Model C.

Bits are irrelevant, save for the bottom bracket and seat post; what's it got? Additional photographs of frame details, especially underside of the bottom bracket, dropouts, and bridges, might provide illumination?

Congratulations on your acquisition!.

(Head badge is not an original.)

xiaoman1 

O.I.,
Here is a link to a thread that describes the model B....did any of them not have the seat post binder we typically associate with Cinelli's?
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...b-finally.html
Best, Ben
T-Mar

orcas island 

Fork ends and rear dropouts are Campagnolo. The seller said that he re-enameled the headbadge himself when the bike went in for its repaint and braze ons

juvela

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forum member martl has hands on expertise of the Model B and may be able to contribute...


Cino did employ this BOCAMA crown for the Model B at one time. here it is on an example dated MCMLIV:


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orcas island 

Some additional photos of the fork crown, bb shell and seat stay cluster. No serial number or oil port on the bottom bracket


Bottom bracket was changed out from the original Campy at the time it was turned into a triple

Silca pump with Campy head included in the deal

obrentharris 

Nice bike whatever it is.
Bottom bracket width and presence or lack of headbadge holes under the aftermarket badge will be valuable clues, also seat tube inside diameter.
Brent

juvela

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enlarged head emblem image about as far as i can take it

appears to be affixed with rivets

a Cinelli from the era of this frame would have its head emblem affixed with brass slotted head screws

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merziac

Would the spacing be the same as a correct one?

I don't see this being a Cinelli, no S/N or oil ports/drain points at something else as hallmarks that line up for it would have it be older than it appears.

Based on some of the other threads I vote maybe Guerciotti, tentatively.

RobbieTunes

Note: OP said the seller removed the head badge and repainted it.

iab

That fork crown is common. Vicini, Benotto and Peloso just to name a few who have used it. The BB is nothing like I have seen on any Cinelli. A Giotto Cinelli sort of has a similar seat cluster, but it is not a Giotto.

Cinelli did some different things in the late 80s and 90s, but not the use of the old logo. Neat bike though.

clubman 

Am I missing something? Cinelli badges before 1973 were basically brass ovals with a painted, embossed finish. Nothing like the OP's.

orcas island 

I went into this knowing that there was a very good chance that this might not be an actual Cinelli. The research I did last night couldn’t turn up a photo or set of specs that were an exact match for this bike. I’m also aware that Cinelli’s are a prime target for re-badging trickery
Whatever it may be, it seems like a nice frame set up with good components for the type of riding I do. I’ll clean it up, rebuild the bearings, and put the rest of the Campy components that came with the bike back in place.
I just heard from the seller; he tells me purchased it used; badged and sporting decals just like this from a reputable shop in San Jose in the 1990’s
The components on the bike, and those that were included separately are worth more than what I spent here, so it’s not a big issue if this turns out to be something other then a Cinelli.

I’ll keep looking, and would still love to hear from others about what they think this may be.
Seatpost is marked 26.8 by the way...

juvela

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we all know head emblem is decades later than cycle

not really an issue

always possible original lost or stolen; do not think this is the case but possible...

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serial -

have a go at scrutinizing the right side of the seat tube just below the seat lug

this is the location of the marking on the frameset of hazetguy

not necessary to be legible - just see if there may be something there

you could try turning it round under strong illumination

if something present it would suggest frame to have come from the same workshop as his...

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"Mountain View" -

wonder if work done by Hugh Enochs, he may have been yet working at this date

if Hugh perchance did the work there may be a forum member who is in touch with him

always the chance he may recall the frame...

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clubman 

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be dismissive of the OP or bike at all.
I was looking through the possible Guerciotti links and there was a green Rossignoli frame that appeared to be a dead ringer for this one but I can't find it again anywhere. Frustrating.

orcas island 

^ No worries! No issue with your (or anyone else’s) suggestion about what this may be. I saw that post about the possible match to a Guerciotti; that would hardly be a terrible outcome here!

merziac

Here's the Guerciotti that I based my spaghetti fling on, there's a Rossi there too that has a lot of numbers stamped in it and pointy stay caps that are quite different to my eye.

Assuming you saw this.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-needed-2.html

orcas island 

I did. That looks very similar! What year was that one built; sometime in the 1960’s, or later?

merziac

Pics are from 2 different blogs, one said 66 and both are the same bike. It also says it has stamped numbers as well so if there are none at all on yours......

Paging @MauriceMoss

orcas island 

I looked at it again under a strong light; nothing at all visible on either the seat tube or the bottom bracket.

merziac

Well, either the plot thickens with even more coverup or we're barking up the wrong tree, just don't see this being a Cinelli, don't think anyone would cover up legitimate hallmarks to make it look like a different Cinelli no matter what.

Agree that it may not matter at this point but even if the $$$ were ok despite that, it would still be nice to nail this down.

juvela

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thanks very much for making the check

suggested it as the marks on the hazetguy frame are quite shallow and not easily read, even in bare metal

this is one of those cases where it is "unfortunate" that the paint finish is in good condition - prevents one from "going exploring" ...

you asked about a date. iirc we concluded on the hazetguy frame that it could not be earlier than 1968 or later than 1969-70. well, at least that's what my "memory" says

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machinist42

Could you please post some photos of the dropouts?
Both sides would be helpful, and so that one can see how the stay ends are finished?

Have you pulled the forks?