Upgrading MTB for Touring: Mini reviews of stuff
05-17-13, 09:13 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Upgrading MTB for Touring: Mini reviews of stuff
Hi everyone!
Am converting my old rigid Marin MTB for "proper" touring 5000km long. Had already toured on it, with a crappy rack, it worked, but there were things to be improved.
I tried to improve them. Some things seem worth it. Some seem like a stupid waste of money. Here are my 2 cents on what I did, what I think of what I did... These are just opinions, though, and I have not toured with the new version of my bike yet. Just post-purchase experiments.
Mavic XM719 rims on LX hubs with Vittoria Randonneur Pro (Hyper) tires: worth it, but was damn expensive (around 220€) and I might have done without, probably at the expense of broken spokes. The new tires (had Randonneurs non pro, lower TPI and wire bead) do roll a bit better, which you feel at startup/low speed, while offering slightly better road buzz dampening. Previous tires were already 2000km in, but might have rode 5000km more, don't know. Rims: had already deformed single walled Alex rims. New rigid rims are about the same weight, might contribute to better rolling too. But they should not break, are true and most noticeably, don't flex when you brake. Stopping powered, control and modulation multiplied by... a good amount. Hubs are just that, LX freewheel makes a nice old school clickety sound.
Avid SD7, XT levers, Kool Stop dual compound pads. Not worth it. I already had SD7 on another bike, upgrading from no-model Shimano ones all unpainted aluminum looking like 2mm thick stamped steel. The SD7 offer absolutely NO performance improvements. But the quick release really works quickly and they are easier to fine tune. Mostly useless, but >20€ quality cartridged pads, 46€ new brakes with quality cartridge pads, so not dramatic cost increase and I would have left with old pads. XT T780 levers are incredibly light, and seem slightly smaller (probably to gain more weight). Though they would be ServoWave, they are not, but I'm glad they were not - a friend had ones, tried them, didn't like the feel though interesting. But smaller is GREAT if you have smaller hands, and they have no play, don't flex, feel lovely. At 33€ on rosebikes, expensive, useless, but very nice. Kool Stop Dual Compound: feel mushy, sometimes scream. Hate them, put back the Avid ones which are perfect imho, keep the KS as spares. Good rims make good braking performance. The rest doesn't account for more than 10% (unless you have crappy flexy steel/plastic brakes and levers).
Changing chainring from 28/38/48 to 22/32/42 and changing BB, chain and cassette. Seems not worth it. Cost me money, and feel stupid for spending it. Might prove good later, don't know. In the city, the 32 middle ring is way too low while the 38 felt perfect. No performance improvement, slightly lighter going from Acera (3xx) to Alivio (4xx), hum, mostly going from 48 to 42t. Unloaded I hate this gearing range and feel like 28t lowest was probably enough. Steeper I would walk anyway. And my 8spd chain only was 3000km in. Lost money. But might prove worth it as I'm going to climb a lot of mountains, that I'm a spinner, and a very poor climber. Dunno.
DMR v8 Mag pedals with double straps. Interesting. Pedals are superb, you get some seriously better power transfer, rode faster than ever. But I won't keep them, too grippy "spikes" and i HATE the double straps. Will go to Sylvan Touring with classic cages, which I like on my father's bike and that are wide enough. Wider suits me better, now I now that, at least. And I have the final word on what fits my feet best.
Cateye "psychedelic" rear light and 520 front light. Rear worth it. The rear light is one of the most expensive ones but is REALLY awesome, seen from far, from all angles, noticed, not mistaken for a scooter, etc... Miles ahead of any other rear light I ever seen. Don't stare at it! Front light: crappy plastic, and I figured I don't need it as I have a headlamp I could bring in, won't be riding at night unless forced to anyway.
Tubus Logo Evo rear rack. Engineering rant. Light!!!!!! And beautiful shape to see. The Evo mounting system is nice, I would recommend it. Top platform is very narrow but the Logo is meant to strap things a different way, with sides resting on the panniers. But but but... First, why Torx screws not regular Allen? Forces you to bring one more tool! Absurd! (might be a pseudo anti theft though....). Second, don't try to torque "moderately". And USE LOCTITE! Did not torque too much, was on my way to grab my torx key at the workshop and fix the thing with a level and loctite... Then heard "bling... bling bang" and seen bolts flying all around the street. Lost the special nuts, will have to order them to fix back the rack, no workaround. Hey Tubus, this is supposed to be a touring rack, isn't it? Why make it work with easily lost special parts with no easy workarounds********** Will loctite AND put gaffer tape on them. If the bolt gets loose, the parts won't be lost, at least. Better learn it now than 3000km further.
Ortlieb rear panniers. As good as Vaude, same price, but different. I had Vaude Aqua Back. I sold them with my recumbent because I thought I'd like the externally strapped shoulder strap on the Ortlieb. I love that feature though strap is a bit small. Ortlieb's fabric is more supple, and lighter. Ortliebs you roll, then put the shoulder strap in the little fixture that contributes to bag closing by holding the sides. Vaude, you put the strap in the pannier, try to roll the thing the best you can if you leave them attached - it gets in the way, then lock on left side, right side, and top. Both are perfeclty usable, but the Ortlieb closing system is way better engineered imho.
But... What is that crappy hook system???? Vaude you have the lower hook which you can (recommended) hook from under. So you lift the bag with the lower hook grabbing the rack. Then put it on the top rail with the top hooks, that stay open once opened no matter how you grab the bag even if you don't grab it by the "unlocking handle". You close the hooks with your fingers, hear a reassuring "click", it's in place and won't move. Dope. Ortlieb, the way the top hooks are made, force you to hook the lower hook from the top, and hook the top hooks in the same motion, all that while holding the bag by the "unlocking" strap - and in the middle or one won't be fully open and won't get in place. Check you really managed to get all the hooks in correct place. Repeat as many times as needed until it works. I would qualify their mounting system as "massive pain", or "how can you engineer such a clever closing system and fail that miserably at the hooking system?".
Humpert AHS adjustable "Trekking" handlebars: Dope if you like them. A bit heavy >600g but availaible in 51 cm width, while other manufacturers seem to insist on making them tailored for dutch people (read: twice larger than me). Ability to set the center section angle (like you would a flat angled bar by rotating it in the stem clamp), then the ears independently, is dope. Their shape is great with the frontest section having a slight rising angle that you don't see in the pictures but that is really nice. Wonderful bending work (and ugly granite paint finish in silver but hey...). But: the 51cm offers a smaller than 51cm "flat" center section because of the bends so you put your hands in a quite narrow place. It's a compromise, small flat with nice sides, or better suited flat with too large sides... It also exists in 58cm width should you prefer. There is no remaining place for twist shifters in the 51, or you won't be able to align your brake levers xD. I even think that the only shifters that would fit well would be SRAM triggers and Paul Thumbies, and maybe integrated brake/levers.
While perfectly good handlebars, I think I will "drop" (pun intended) them and go to randonneur (salsa cowbell, probably) drops as I'm more and more liking drops for the shoulder position they give me. Trekking handlebars do offer you many hand positions and some variety in shoulder position. But back, especially lower back, doesn't move much. High up drops seem to offer way more positions to me, and I seem to feel way less wrist/shoulder pain with drops, so... I went to trekking handlebars because of the increased leverage for climbing and way better stopping power. But I won't be braking that much... And I don't like the foam on the handlebars, causes numbness and get soaked up in sweat in 10 minutes. But you can wrap them with your favorite bar tape so doesn't matter. Note that if you ever choose these handlebars, I highly recommend the Ortlieb Ultimate 6 *Compact* handlebar bag. It fits perfectly and well... It's probably the only bar bag that will fit anyway. But if really fits perfectly, and that bag is super nice. And Ortliebs mounting system is, this time, very well engineered - a bit strange but works wonders, though you'll need a cable puller to really secure it well in place. If I go to drops, I will take the larger bar bags from ortlieb and the map holder. Ah, BTW: on the 51cm humpert bars... Forget about putting any decent sized map holder on your stem. You'll have to put it over your bar bag. Or strap it another way.
Brooks Flyer. Heeeh. Don't know. Stellar yet not able to fit? It was given to me by a LBS I sometimes wrench for. It's already used, sagging. It presses on my perineum, I slide a bit on it, I have not yet found a good position for it. But: fine tuning the position and tension gets it better and better and, unlike any other saddle I ever had, I have not the slighest hint of sit bones pain!!! I really hate this saddle because it's perfect... on half of the problem. Will fine tune it more. Maybe another brooks is the solution. Will have a hard time reverting to other saddles, even my Italia Flite.
That's about all. I know online resellers which are going to hate me for sending back many pieces. There are some I binned prematureately the box, that is stupid, I will have to sell them second hands new... And there are some I will keep but regret having lost money on them, like changing transmission and brake arms.
What seems important to me are contact points. That is: handlebars, saddle, and pedals. Then, the contact point between the bike and the ground: tires, maybe wheels if you feel yours won't hold. The rest, as long as it is not completely inadequate... probably doesn't need anything.
The actual touring should take care of the last contact point, the one between you... and the sky.
Am converting my old rigid Marin MTB for "proper" touring 5000km long. Had already toured on it, with a crappy rack, it worked, but there were things to be improved.
I tried to improve them. Some things seem worth it. Some seem like a stupid waste of money. Here are my 2 cents on what I did, what I think of what I did... These are just opinions, though, and I have not toured with the new version of my bike yet. Just post-purchase experiments.
Mavic XM719 rims on LX hubs with Vittoria Randonneur Pro (Hyper) tires: worth it, but was damn expensive (around 220€) and I might have done without, probably at the expense of broken spokes. The new tires (had Randonneurs non pro, lower TPI and wire bead) do roll a bit better, which you feel at startup/low speed, while offering slightly better road buzz dampening. Previous tires were already 2000km in, but might have rode 5000km more, don't know. Rims: had already deformed single walled Alex rims. New rigid rims are about the same weight, might contribute to better rolling too. But they should not break, are true and most noticeably, don't flex when you brake. Stopping powered, control and modulation multiplied by... a good amount. Hubs are just that, LX freewheel makes a nice old school clickety sound.
Avid SD7, XT levers, Kool Stop dual compound pads. Not worth it. I already had SD7 on another bike, upgrading from no-model Shimano ones all unpainted aluminum looking like 2mm thick stamped steel. The SD7 offer absolutely NO performance improvements. But the quick release really works quickly and they are easier to fine tune. Mostly useless, but >20€ quality cartridged pads, 46€ new brakes with quality cartridge pads, so not dramatic cost increase and I would have left with old pads. XT T780 levers are incredibly light, and seem slightly smaller (probably to gain more weight). Though they would be ServoWave, they are not, but I'm glad they were not - a friend had ones, tried them, didn't like the feel though interesting. But smaller is GREAT if you have smaller hands, and they have no play, don't flex, feel lovely. At 33€ on rosebikes, expensive, useless, but very nice. Kool Stop Dual Compound: feel mushy, sometimes scream. Hate them, put back the Avid ones which are perfect imho, keep the KS as spares. Good rims make good braking performance. The rest doesn't account for more than 10% (unless you have crappy flexy steel/plastic brakes and levers).
Changing chainring from 28/38/48 to 22/32/42 and changing BB, chain and cassette. Seems not worth it. Cost me money, and feel stupid for spending it. Might prove good later, don't know. In the city, the 32 middle ring is way too low while the 38 felt perfect. No performance improvement, slightly lighter going from Acera (3xx) to Alivio (4xx), hum, mostly going from 48 to 42t. Unloaded I hate this gearing range and feel like 28t lowest was probably enough. Steeper I would walk anyway. And my 8spd chain only was 3000km in. Lost money. But might prove worth it as I'm going to climb a lot of mountains, that I'm a spinner, and a very poor climber. Dunno.
DMR v8 Mag pedals with double straps. Interesting. Pedals are superb, you get some seriously better power transfer, rode faster than ever. But I won't keep them, too grippy "spikes" and i HATE the double straps. Will go to Sylvan Touring with classic cages, which I like on my father's bike and that are wide enough. Wider suits me better, now I now that, at least. And I have the final word on what fits my feet best.
Cateye "psychedelic" rear light and 520 front light. Rear worth it. The rear light is one of the most expensive ones but is REALLY awesome, seen from far, from all angles, noticed, not mistaken for a scooter, etc... Miles ahead of any other rear light I ever seen. Don't stare at it! Front light: crappy plastic, and I figured I don't need it as I have a headlamp I could bring in, won't be riding at night unless forced to anyway.
Tubus Logo Evo rear rack. Engineering rant. Light!!!!!! And beautiful shape to see. The Evo mounting system is nice, I would recommend it. Top platform is very narrow but the Logo is meant to strap things a different way, with sides resting on the panniers. But but but... First, why Torx screws not regular Allen? Forces you to bring one more tool! Absurd! (might be a pseudo anti theft though....). Second, don't try to torque "moderately". And USE LOCTITE! Did not torque too much, was on my way to grab my torx key at the workshop and fix the thing with a level and loctite... Then heard "bling... bling bang" and seen bolts flying all around the street. Lost the special nuts, will have to order them to fix back the rack, no workaround. Hey Tubus, this is supposed to be a touring rack, isn't it? Why make it work with easily lost special parts with no easy workarounds********** Will loctite AND put gaffer tape on them. If the bolt gets loose, the parts won't be lost, at least. Better learn it now than 3000km further.
Ortlieb rear panniers. As good as Vaude, same price, but different. I had Vaude Aqua Back. I sold them with my recumbent because I thought I'd like the externally strapped shoulder strap on the Ortlieb. I love that feature though strap is a bit small. Ortlieb's fabric is more supple, and lighter. Ortliebs you roll, then put the shoulder strap in the little fixture that contributes to bag closing by holding the sides. Vaude, you put the strap in the pannier, try to roll the thing the best you can if you leave them attached - it gets in the way, then lock on left side, right side, and top. Both are perfeclty usable, but the Ortlieb closing system is way better engineered imho.
But... What is that crappy hook system???? Vaude you have the lower hook which you can (recommended) hook from under. So you lift the bag with the lower hook grabbing the rack. Then put it on the top rail with the top hooks, that stay open once opened no matter how you grab the bag even if you don't grab it by the "unlocking handle". You close the hooks with your fingers, hear a reassuring "click", it's in place and won't move. Dope. Ortlieb, the way the top hooks are made, force you to hook the lower hook from the top, and hook the top hooks in the same motion, all that while holding the bag by the "unlocking" strap - and in the middle or one won't be fully open and won't get in place. Check you really managed to get all the hooks in correct place. Repeat as many times as needed until it works. I would qualify their mounting system as "massive pain", or "how can you engineer such a clever closing system and fail that miserably at the hooking system?".
Humpert AHS adjustable "Trekking" handlebars: Dope if you like them. A bit heavy >600g but availaible in 51 cm width, while other manufacturers seem to insist on making them tailored for dutch people (read: twice larger than me). Ability to set the center section angle (like you would a flat angled bar by rotating it in the stem clamp), then the ears independently, is dope. Their shape is great with the frontest section having a slight rising angle that you don't see in the pictures but that is really nice. Wonderful bending work (and ugly granite paint finish in silver but hey...). But: the 51cm offers a smaller than 51cm "flat" center section because of the bends so you put your hands in a quite narrow place. It's a compromise, small flat with nice sides, or better suited flat with too large sides... It also exists in 58cm width should you prefer. There is no remaining place for twist shifters in the 51, or you won't be able to align your brake levers xD. I even think that the only shifters that would fit well would be SRAM triggers and Paul Thumbies, and maybe integrated brake/levers.
While perfectly good handlebars, I think I will "drop" (pun intended) them and go to randonneur (salsa cowbell, probably) drops as I'm more and more liking drops for the shoulder position they give me. Trekking handlebars do offer you many hand positions and some variety in shoulder position. But back, especially lower back, doesn't move much. High up drops seem to offer way more positions to me, and I seem to feel way less wrist/shoulder pain with drops, so... I went to trekking handlebars because of the increased leverage for climbing and way better stopping power. But I won't be braking that much... And I don't like the foam on the handlebars, causes numbness and get soaked up in sweat in 10 minutes. But you can wrap them with your favorite bar tape so doesn't matter. Note that if you ever choose these handlebars, I highly recommend the Ortlieb Ultimate 6 *Compact* handlebar bag. It fits perfectly and well... It's probably the only bar bag that will fit anyway. But if really fits perfectly, and that bag is super nice. And Ortliebs mounting system is, this time, very well engineered - a bit strange but works wonders, though you'll need a cable puller to really secure it well in place. If I go to drops, I will take the larger bar bags from ortlieb and the map holder. Ah, BTW: on the 51cm humpert bars... Forget about putting any decent sized map holder on your stem. You'll have to put it over your bar bag. Or strap it another way.
Brooks Flyer. Heeeh. Don't know. Stellar yet not able to fit? It was given to me by a LBS I sometimes wrench for. It's already used, sagging. It presses on my perineum, I slide a bit on it, I have not yet found a good position for it. But: fine tuning the position and tension gets it better and better and, unlike any other saddle I ever had, I have not the slighest hint of sit bones pain!!! I really hate this saddle because it's perfect... on half of the problem. Will fine tune it more. Maybe another brooks is the solution. Will have a hard time reverting to other saddles, even my Italia Flite.
That's about all. I know online resellers which are going to hate me for sending back many pieces. There are some I binned prematureately the box, that is stupid, I will have to sell them second hands new... And there are some I will keep but regret having lost money on them, like changing transmission and brake arms.
What seems important to me are contact points. That is: handlebars, saddle, and pedals. Then, the contact point between the bike and the ground: tires, maybe wheels if you feel yours won't hold. The rest, as long as it is not completely inadequate... probably doesn't need anything.
The actual touring should take care of the last contact point, the one between you... and the sky.
05-17-13, 09:18 AM
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I'm also baffled by Tubus' choice of T20 torx wrenches for their racks. If they'd used T25, then people who use disc brakes, at least, would not need an extra tool - but this way EVERYBODY has to bring along an otherwise useless wrench just for the rack, when a simple Allen bolt would have sufficed...
05-17-13, 10:41 AM
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I'm also baffled by Tubus' choice of T20 torx wrenches for their racks. If they'd used T25, then people who use disc brakes, at least, would not need an extra tool - but this way EVERYBODY has to bring along an otherwise useless wrench just for the rack, when a simple Allen bolt would have sufficed...
My guess is that M5 bolts with a T25 head were not as readily availible as Tubus hoped.
05-18-13, 04:59 AM
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I think you'll find that your choice of lower gearing will really pay off once you are touring with a load and in those hills. When I had only one bike I had it geared for the city and thought I'd be fine when I took it out touring, but instead found myself walking more than I should have.
05-18-13, 04:42 PM
#5
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Thread Starter
Yep, it might be. That's why I installed it anyway and not sent it back (but I couldn't have known if not installed, aha...). I am gonna cross serious mountains from Paris to Istanbul (and Cappadoce if time permits), because I chose to go through Croatia, Macedonia (hills), and Greece (more hills). Turkey will give me some more hills! Time will tell. But I thought of transferring my old crankset to another bike... won't. As soon as I'll get back from my tour, I'll be putting back larger rings!
Yeah, I find Tubus' choice completely illogical. I will buy some allen bolts the right size, or maybe I should leave Torx as an anti-theft... But they could as well remove many other components from the bike while they're at it so that doesn't seems that logical.
Rode some more today and comfirms: when people tell the wheels are all important to the feel of a bicycle they are right. Love my new wheels and tires, even if tires are about the same I had previously - they actually are the same but with a kevlar bead and TPI increase from 60 to 120. Don't know if more supple casing is supposed to smooth out the ride even at same pressure, but it sure does there!
Yeah, I find Tubus' choice completely illogical. I will buy some allen bolts the right size, or maybe I should leave Torx as an anti-theft... But they could as well remove many other components from the bike while they're at it so that doesn't seems that logical.
Rode some more today and comfirms: when people tell the wheels are all important to the feel of a bicycle they are right. Love my new wheels and tires, even if tires are about the same I had previously - they actually are the same but with a kevlar bead and TPI increase from 60 to 120. Don't know if more supple casing is supposed to smooth out the ride even at same pressure, but it sure does there!
Last edited by NeoY2k; 05-18-13 at 06:24 PM.
05-18-13, 05:03 PM
#6
Banned
If I want it to not come Loose I use 5mm bolts with a 8mm hex head. & for extra strength get the 8.8 ones.
higher grade, tempered steel ..
higher grade, tempered steel ..
06-07-13, 03:04 AM
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I have found that chainring combination 22 or 24 (for the really steep hills) + 36 (for most flat to rolling terrain) + 44 (down hill or back wind) works best for me. With 11-32 cassette the range is from 20 to 110 gear inches.
06-07-13, 05:38 AM
#9
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NeoY2k, It reads like you've nailed the touring aspect of the bike quite well. Alas, when you focus on one duty the versatility you're accustomed with can be reduced somewhat. Also you've learned that not all upgrades are as expected, something all cyclists discover. The best upgrades are those that improve rider comfort WRT the three contact points. Who wants to ride uncomfortably, eh? Good luck with the Brooks.
I've a 28-38-48 crankset that I was going to use on my touring bike, but once I loaded it up a little I decided to keep the 22-32-44. It really has turned into a non issue riding unloaded, I'm just not going to see 30+ MPH on some downhills.
Brad
I've a 28-38-48 crankset that I was going to use on my touring bike, but once I loaded it up a little I decided to keep the 22-32-44. It really has turned into a non issue riding unloaded, I'm just not going to see 30+ MPH on some downhills.
Brad
