JohnJ80

Exactly right. Very few bike lights reach the intensity of a car headlight low beam much less two of them. That's why you don't notice the bike lights when driving - there are many more intense and brighter lights around that they are just not remarkable. There's also a big difference between being annoying (almost anything can be annoying depending on the person) versus unsafe.

J.

dwmckee

The trouble with this is that only some motorists slow down in this situation; some others are liable to plow on into whatever they cannot see... You never know which is behind you until it is too late to do anything about it.

JohnJ80

Well, riding with high bright tail lights for the years that they've been around, I'd argue this is a a phoney argument. The vast majority of drivers either slow down or go way wide or both. No one wants to hit a cyclist and most drivers have been surprised to find a cyclist right in front of them because they were poorly lit. The first step to not getting hit as a cyclist is to be visible.

As a driver for decades more than that, I'd really say it's nuts argument. Seriously - do you really want to suggest that if someone sees a bright light they aim at it? If that were true, when drivers forget to dim their bright lights, we'd have more head on collisions than could be counted.

J.

znomit

I agree. A drunk or tired drivers brain will be thinking "WTF is that" instead of "mind the bike". Pedal reflectors and ankle bands FTW. How many people here use reflective ankle bands?
Heres some more on that...
When More Visible ? Safer: Target Fixation | Off The Beaten Path

Mark Stone

I do, because I wear blue jeans when I ride in the cold so I have an ankle band for my pant leg. It is reflective, and I think the up and down reflection identifies "that thing in front of me with all the lights" as a bicycle.

Daniel4

That sounds like the type of argument to convince someone NOT to ride his bike. Drunk drivers will be on the road whether you are biking, driving or walking.

So you're suggesting it's better to ride ninja?

I wear ankle reflectors as well as a reflector vest and a reflector band on my helmet and left arm. I have blinkies on my helmet, the back and the front of my bike and I have a helmet headlight.

This thread is making me think I should get a real tail light – even though none of the stuff I mentioned will deter a drunk driver if he’s determined to drive drunk.

JohnJ80

I think his point was you should try and be as difficult to see as possible otherwise tired or drunk drivers will hit you. Other than that, I'm not sure of the takeaway either. Seemed pretty clear to me.

Burton

It should be pretty easy to figure out if your lights are an irritant to other cyclists and motorists - all you have to do is check what you're lighting up. If you're lighting up the faces of oncoming motorists, cyclists and pedestrians you're blinding them pure and simple. If you're behind a car and you're illuminating the inside then your light is shining directly into the rear view mirror and blinding the driver.

And that can be as much a result of where the light is positioned rather than how the beam is focused or shaped. Helmet mounted lights are absolutely the worst offenders. Same goes for any conical flood type headlight. The most traffic friendly arrangement is a light mounted as low as possible and with a very limited vertical throw. Automobile headlights are typically about 18 inches off the ground.

CliffordK

I hit a MUT yesterday that I don't normally ride on.

One pedestrian with lots of lights.
Couple of pedestrians, dark clothing, no lights (almost missed seeing one as I dimmed my light for the cyclist (with lights) approaching me from behind the pedestrian).
One bicycle looked like it had a dim light, so I directed my light downward... turns out it only had a white reflector on front.
One other bicycle was all dark.

I ride most of the time with my headlight on dim (wide) mode, and still tend to direct it downward when approaching pedestrians or bikes, and often for cars too.

However, there are some MUTs that it is just best to have a bright light and as much look-ahead as possible.

Domane

Actually being retired law enforcement there is one type of driver who does in fact aim for lights in front of them and that is the impaired driver. By impaired driver I am talking about those who are impaired from alcohol or drugs. Many police officers who were conducting traffic stops on the side of the of road have been rear ended by impaired drivers. What has been determined is the impaired driver sees the lights in this case the red tail lights along with the flashing emergency lights and tries to follow in the path of the lights thinking they are following a moving vehicle. This would also explain why so many impaired drivers are involved in head on crashes as well.

Don't drink or do drugs and drive be it illegal drugs or prescription/over the counter drugs.

Domane

You really need to redefine what your saying to impaired driver no just drunk driver. Many fatal and injury crashes are due to impaired drivers who had no alcohol in their system but did have drugs in their system.

RomansFiveEight

This goes around the motorcycle rounds all the time. Some riders running their bright lights 24/7. There are benefits to running the high beams during broad daylight (I do that too). It's not blinding; far from it. But it helps the bike stand out. And night, I ride the same as I drive my car. Low beams when there's traffic oncoming. Some bikers want to push the idea that high-beams are for safety and "at least they see me". Except, drivers can see the lowbeam just fine. And there have been a couple fatalities now with a driver plowing straight into a high-beamed motorcycle.

You go where you look. And it's true with cars as it is with motorcycles and bicycles. ESPECIALLY when the driver is tired, and especially when drunk. Some police departments have started using light bars that, at night, are dim in the back and bright in the front. Because they are getting hit at night by tired, drunk, and otherwise impaired drivers. Who drift towards the bright lights, misjudge distance, and plow right into them. Dimmer lights make them aware they are there without fixing their gaze to it, causing them to be distracted. Another very bad side effect, is that it destroys night vision. Suddenly the only thing they can see, especially if they are older (or tired, or impaired); suddenly ALL they can see is the light. No longer can they see the road, the car, pedestrians, etc. The ONLY thing they can see is the bright light. Their eyes adjust quickly and don't have quite the 'light range' that they might otherwise.

To each their own. But just consider that a bright light aimed up at a driver with the intention of being aggressive might actually not have the effect you think it does. A more recent motorcycle fatality involved an elderly woman who hit a motorcyclist head-on, a motorcyclist who had his high-beams on. She said she was blinded, couldn't see, became disoriented, and couldn't tell where the motorcycle was. She subconciously went where she looked. Crossed the center line, hit him head on. The response from much of the community is "She shouldn't have been driving". But he's not any less dead just because she probably shouldn't have been driving at night. The reality is, there are lots of people on the road who shouldn't be, even with suspended licenses, drunk, far too old, etc. It's a reality and you have to be prepared for it. Heck, this woman might've even faced charges (I didn't 'follow' the story. Though I imagine the reality that the motorcyclist was breaking traffic laws with his high beams may have played into a defense if any charges were filed). But does it really matter? I mean if there was something that could've been done to prevent that, isn't that a lot better than placing the blame after the fact?

A frustration of mine in the motorcycle scene is a lot of emphasis on "dumb cagers". And hey, I get it. In fact, I've even been hit on my motorcycle by a commercial vehicle that left a driveway and drove INTO me, talk about not seeing me. And I've had numerous close calls with people pulling out in front of me or turning left in front of me. But for me? It's all about being defensive. I can place the blame and talk about how it's everyone elses fault. OR; I can take responsibility for what I can do, and make sure that I'm doing everything that's within MY power to prevent these accidents; because it really doesn't matter whose fault it is. I'd rather just avoid the accident altogether. Even if I have to swallow my pride and be a little more defensive, and a lot less aggressive. (Right of WEIGHT, not right of WAY!)

I am curious about the legality of blinking red tail lights (to be clear I'm not opposed to them. Just curious). Bicycles might be different but a police officer friend of mine told me that he's been tempted to write tickets for it. You're not allowed to have a flashing red or blue light on a road-going vehicle. Bicycle or otherwise. At least that's what he says. He said you could do a solid red and a blinking orange (think 'hazard lights' instead of 'police/fire vehicle') But who knows. I never looked into it. That was just one police officers opinion. I'm confident he knows the laws; but even he has admitted before to spending 99% of his time dealing with cars and trucks; and he's often not well-versed in the particularities of bicycles, motorcycles, and other vehicles.

CliffordK

I don't think of lights as being aggressive. I just want to see where I'm going, and see those people without lights or reflectors. I think the big issue is that if a bike light is 1/2" in diameter and puts out the same light as a car light that is 8" in diameter, with no filament protection, it can be perceived as much more intense by oncoming traffic,

In the USA, hazard lights (on the back) can be yellow or red.

Find me a prohibition for slow moving vehicles from displaying hazards.

The blinking bike lights are pretty common, and I'd much prefer them to steady lights, in part due the the problem that has been mentioned periodically about confusion between following lights in front of oneself. It is harder to mistake a flashing bike light from a distant steady tail-light.

PaulRivers

Someone posted a pretty positive review of the Specialized Flux Expert, I noticed, over on CandlePower forums:
REVIEW: Specialized Flux Expert Bicycle Headlight - Photo Intensive

It's like a car headlight - has a low beam with a cutoff at the horizon, and a high beam with no cutoff that lights up treetops and everything.

Self-contained, lith-ion batteries, with the option to add an external battery via the usb port (it specifically is designed to allow it to be powered via an external battery).

1200 lumens on high beam / high mode.

RomansFiveEight

Oh I'm in no way opposed to the blinking lights. In fact I intend to use them as well. That's just what an LEO friend told me. But I'm not all that convinced he was right. It was my interpretation that turn signals and hazard flashers can be red or amber.

And I PERSONALLY haven't seen a bicycle that I would call 'aggressive'. But I HAVE heard comments, here and there, about using super bright lights aimed upwards, with the goal of being obnoxiously visible to the driver. I know motorcyclists who do the same (putting higher-powered headlights in and running bright lights even when traffic is oncoming at night). The idea is "I'm a motorcyclist/bicyclist, and they are just some dumb cager. They need to see me." But I'm afraid it might horrifically backfire.

I would think any light bright enough to adequately light the road in front of you would be visible to a driver. I also think a blinking headlamp could be effective. Some motorcyclists use headlight modulators, too; which cause the headlight to dim/brighten in a rapid modulation. Though, I personally don't because I have this fear that a driver would make a cursory glance over towards my bike, see it flash, and think "Oh, they're signaling me to go ahead!" and pull out. People are notorious for making just a quick cursory glance, not actually 'looking' before pulling out.

There's definitely research out there, though; to show that movement, variation, and overall size is as important if not more important than brightness.

CliffordK

Whew, $275 MSRP, but it does look like a nice light.

I was thinking of lights, with about the same idea.

For a bicycle, it is important to illuminate the road, and some in front of a person. Even in high beam, one doesn't need to see the treetops.

What one really needs an engineered beam. A lot of it can go straight ahead, but it needs to be from about the level of the handlebars, and below, with a little bit spread around so that one can be seen (and also see obstacles). But... it is critical to see the road and road debris.

See Diagram.


And, that is the big problem with the Chinese lights. They put the R&D into bright LEDs (maybe or maybe not as bright as they say), and some into the battery packs (not necessarily the best batteries). However, other than a parabolic reflector which may not even be the right shape, they do nothing to direct the beam where it should go.

I have a Fresnel lens on mine which is nice in the sense that it gives me a broad beam, but still there is no vertical cutoff.

So, to get the beam pointed in front of me with reasonable look-ahead, there is too much upward bleeding of the beam.

My light is also out of balance, so with the rubber-band attachment (which is nice, and I've removed it for spotlight mode a few times, but it also puts it at risk for theft), but a few good bumps, and it is pointing downward.

However, once one gets the focus right, for the most part one shouldn't need to adjust it (or perhaps fix it with a spring for short-term adjustments).

I suppose I don't worry about a $50 light, but I don't want a light that cost more than my bike to get stolen.

dwmckee

Wow this thing looks excellent albeit pricey. Finally a powerful battery powered light that mat be even better designed than the dyno lights. Pity I just missed this for my Christmas list! I do have a birthday approaching however!

PaulRivers

Right, the pic you posted above is basically it's beam pattern. I find that a good shaped beam's main benefit is in maximum light throw distance down the road, and being ideal (well the best I've found) for putting out an even amount of light so your eyes don't adjust to a hotspot and your pupils contract and you end up not being able to see great anyways.

#3 is not annoying or blinding oncoming riders. Much more of an issue on MUPs like I ride than it is on roads with cars.

Yeah, at $275 it's better priced than some lights, but not into cheap chinese light territory. I mean you can take it on and off the bike, but that's annoying.

PaulRivers

Hopefully. I bought one this week for my dad for his birthday, just gave it to him over lunch. Was going to take a pic of the beam pattern, but my camera broke last week and it's in for repairs for a "lens error". :-/

I'm hoping it will be a "has enough light for all possible situations" light. Seems like there's a few people for whom some of the other shaped beams lights weren't realistically bright enough for. It does definitely have a better led color temperature than the Ixon Iq Premium. I didn't have a chance to test out brightness side by side, but it should be brighter.

Falchoon

I believe in Europe a red rear bicycle light needs to be solid not flashing. I've never heard of this rule for any other country.

Leebo

I like my bright lights, they let me see in the dark. On the MUP, how am I supposed to see someone all dress in dark clothes? It happens every ride. I do point my blinky light down on the MUP however. I run a 500 lumen on the helmet, 5-700 lumen on the bars plus a blinky on the bars as well. MA law says front white light needs to be seen from 500'. For those of you not running a helmet light, how do you see around a corner? Out of 18 miles, maybe 3 are on the MUP. The rest are roads, dark paths and unit areas. At 25 mph, lots of light needed to not outrun them. The helmet light is also great for getting a drivers attention, works well. Not concerned about annoying others. Most of my riding is not on well lit city streets. YRMV.

Burton

Since you asked :

I'm personally driving with integrated shaped headlights that have a 15 degree vertical spread and a 45 degree horizontal spread. Corners are well covered - even sharp ones.

But there are beam spreaders available that'll work with a variety of lights and do the same thing. Alternatively it's possible to mount two 15 degree spots and offset the beams slightly. The horizontal coverage isn't quite as wide but it's still very effective.

just my opinion - if you feel you need to flash a helmet light at motorists to get their attention - there's something wrong with your overall visibility and very likely the rest of your lighting system .

Leebo

3 front lights, 3 rear lights, 20 x mas led's around main frame, down low glow yellow 100 lumen bottle, wheel lights too. Paired with a reflective vest/jacket, pedals , armbands and leg bands too. I'm very visible. Try pedaling a mile in my shoes. I'm guessing Montreal is not like Boston in terms of drivers. Drivers pull out without looking both ways, a light on them gives them a clue there are other users. One section of my bike path runs right next to a sidewalk and is separated from a one way road. Drivers are looking the other way pulling out of a business driveway, not expecting bikes or peds, because they don't have a clue. They would just run you over if they don't see me. That is where my helmet light comes in handy. I refuse to sacrifice my safety because I have bright lights. Better than getting your a$$ run over. The meek end up under the wheels. The amount of self importance, rudeness, and carelessness among MA drivers really can not be put into words. It needs to be experienced first hand. It is truly a battle, good luck with your pedaling.

10 Wheels

Totally agree with you and your lights.

noglider 

As long as you bring out the big guns only when you need them, I see nothing wrong with that. I do know how brutal Boston traffic is. It's the worst place in the US I've been to, and it is notorious, too. I lived and cycled in Boston for three years. The driving there is mind boggling.