sdmc530

LOL I know the feeling just a bit younger

Hiro11

I'm personally always amazed how little people think bikes should cost. Bikes are full of complicated machining and construction techniques that require lots of hand work. To make a bike strong, light and reliable involves lots of expensive materials and thoughtful engineering. High quality bikes also are produced in small quantities and don't benefit from economies of scale.

And yet, I see a lot of threads with new cyclists here asking about sub $500 bikes for serious riding. Your average hybrid buyer at the bike store balks at anything over $400. A lot of these same people will gladly spend the same amount on a single golf driver or a multiple of that amount on a rarely used, mass produced kitchen appliance. I think this stems from people grow up riding $150 POS department store BMX bikes that last one year. That becomes their benchmark.

I'm not saying $15K for a bike is in any way required or practical. At that price, you're getting into esoteric/conspicuous consumption fetish properties sold to rabid enthusiasts. However, something like $2,500 on a bike you plan to ride thousands of miles a year seems completely reasonable to me. After all, lots of people spend that on gym memberships they never use every year.

jefnvk

To someone competing at a top level of the sport, it very well could be worth it. Likewise, to someone on $300k a year, it is a rather insignificant sum of money to spend. I gave up long ago trying to put my valuation of something in someone else's situation.

I see people running around on all sorts of expensive bikes, but the amount I see over $5k is really minimal. We are acting as if every third person has one of these. Heck, I've only ever seen one in person, and AFAIK, it is still sitting in the same shop display it has been sitting in for the past year.

bruce19

Never. It will make you look 25 again.

veganbikes

Well said!

Yes a 15k bike can seem silly but if it is something you love then go for it. I would rather put 15k into something I really love and will enjoy then spend it on something I don't really care about. However mainly I want the 15k+ bikes to exist so that the bikes underneath eventually get better and better. I want technology to be pushed further and further and it won't really be pushed in the low price points.

People have different priorities on things. They will spend lots of money on certain things but balk at more practical things. People will spend a lot of money on something that doesn't actually get better when you spend more money but on something that does get better they say no. Some people spend 300+ on jeans that are already ripped and destroyed or have a fancier logo on the ass cheek but that cheap 500-600 hybrid is way too much. I have had young people like that and it blew me away.

MRT2

If money were no object and I really was able to spend $15k or even $10k on a bike, I would probably go the full custom route. So I guess on this point, I agree with OP. It is crazy to spend that kind of money on an off the shelf product.

Bonzo Banana

I personally don't think steel or aluminium bikes are as vulnerable to being destroyed as a carbon frame bike because they simply aren't as brittle. Carbon just can't take much impact force at all by the nature of its material. It's not springy its crunchy

I certainly don't think a 7kg carbon bike is as strong as bikes twice their weight. Maybe I'm wrong but that just doesn't feel true at all to me especially as a 14kg road bike would likely be an overly strong design to say the least.

I don't think an old steel bike is as appealing to a thief compared to a new bike but even if they did steal it I don't think you would care as much if the steel bike had a lowish value anyway.

We will definitely have to agree to disagree on those points.

WNCGoater

This^^ We've come to expect nothing to be out of reach of average people. ANYONE can afford ANYTHING now because someone will loan you the money...with interest of course. Many are living paycheck to paycheck. Oh they drive nice cars and have nice homes and all the toys that go along with it...but they are just a few paychecks away from losing it all. And since anything is available and someone will loan the money, we no longer need to exercise the discipline of saving until we can afford something, and thus we oftentimes dig financial holes we have a hard time extricating ourselves from. Yes, you can pay cash for a car. But you may need to consider good used cars and then drive them for 10 years, all the while putting back a little for the next car. People can't put back something for the future because they are strapped with too much debt today, and end up working for just to pay payments on debt.
But yes, this is off topic.
But agree with above, believe it or not used to be people lived within their means and bought "luxuries" when they could actually afford them. Today, to even suggest it is apparently absurd to the average person in our society.

And this is a point. Probably not 1 in 1000 cyclists could wring out of a 15K bike the performance it may be capable of. Dependent on who you are, you simply reach a threshold of what you realistically "need" and can use and beyond that is "fluff". Not judging, just reality. Me, I don't even look at $4000 bikes. Don't have any interest in them. For me to spend that kind of money would be absurd. I'd be about $3000 above my "useful threshold" of reasonable expense for a bike considering my middle aged and continually aging body and how much time and dedication I can give to it!
That's income that could be put toward my next car or my daughter's college. FWIW I wear $20 jerseys too.

Metieval

the $100 CL bicycles worth buying, are the ones being sold because they never got ridden.

Person buys bike, Person never rides it, person dies. Family sells bike because it's an old bike.

WNCGoater

I guess the questions should be asked:

1. What makes a $15,000 bike cost that much?
2. What will it do that a $1500 bike won't do?

indyfabz

I financed by car. 0% for four years. The high school I attended now costs over $50K/year. I'll bet some parents finance tuition. Boats are routinely financed.

indyfabz

IKR. The suggestion that anything other than a small minority of cyclists are spending $15K (or anything close to that) on bikes is, quite frankly, inane.

Koyote

And those few bikes are usually (in my experience) ridden by relatively weak riders. Back when I was racing, I dropped plenty of them...On my steel-frame with nine-speed 105 components.

AlmostTrick

It may be slightly off topic, but the above discussion is, to me, (and apparently a few others here) much more interesting than the $15,000 bike issue.

For my wife and I, it's not about what we can afford, even with "saved" cash. (and of course investments) It's more about financial security, both now and when we (soon) retire. This security is much more important to us than anything we could buy now.

My point is we don't "save up" to buy something. We save as much as we can, and buy stuff when we decide we need or want it. Year over year total savings continues to increase, which ironically, makes it easier to buy any fancy stuff if and when it's wanted.

I find living without a budget to be very comfortable. And it's certainly not about how much we make. Plenty of people who make way more than us are maxed out, and fretting their finances everyday.

I think a lot of it truly comes down to not wanting too much, and being happy with what one has.

fietsbob

Taiwan is the home of many of the manufacturers that supply the brands you are familiar with..

It is not the same nation as Peoples Republic of China ...


not all cars are Ferraris either,
so lower your gaze from the unattainable, towards something more realistic for your actual needs..






....

AlmostTrick

But I understand people get trapped in the debt hole, and it's difficult for them to climb out. But where there's a will, there's a way.

One of my favorite Mr. Money Mustache articles:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012...-an-emergency/

OBoile

This. The OP's mistake was comparing a top of the line bike to a bottom of the line car/motorcycle. $15k car is roughly the equivalent of a $200 bike. It doesn't have any of the crazy engineering that a $500,000 car has, just like the cheap bike doesn't have the crazy engineering of a $15,000 bike. At the top end for any of these products, the cost goes up significantly for very little marginal gain.

That being said, there's really no reason, other than personal pleasure, for someone (other than a pro) to spend more than $3k or so on a bike. Even that is probably overkill for most of us. The difference between a department store bike and a $2000 bike is far, far greater than the difference between a $2k bike and a > $10k bike.

OBoile

Off topic but yeah. If you pay your bill on time, you're not getting charged any interest. Why not use the convenient way and get cash back (or points or whatever)?

tagaproject6

1. The willingness to pay
2. The envy of people you never liked

CliffordK

I'm not sure I trust the published inflation rates. I think the doubling rate is closer to about every 10 years, so 40 years could be as high as 2^4 or 16x. Nothing is quite uniform. But, our old AMC Hornet was about $3500 in 1976. Maybe not that car, but most average cars are nearly 10x that, or about $35K now.

I've always bought used bikes. And, back in the 70's and 80's, about $300 would buy a person a nice used bike, which I presume was around $1000 or $1500 new. So, 10x that comes to $10K to $15K.

The odd thing is that used prices have hardly shifted. Lots of good used bikes in the < $300 range, and perhaps the quality I was getting for around $300 back then would be equivalent to a $600 used bike now.

I think I spent about $600 for my Apple IIe. And, now one can find quite a few new computers for almost that same price.

Ogsarg

A simple matter of scale. To run a business like this there are certain fixed costs and those costs have to be amortized over the number of units sold. Most bikes are made in fairly small quantities so the overhead costs applied to each one is much greater than with a mass market car.

Then there is the volume manufacturing advantage. Car companies spend hundreds of millions to set up an assembly line so they can crank out thousands of cars a month. That is only possible because they can sell enough to make the investment worthwhile and that equipment can be reprogrammed over and over and so can be amortized over decades.

Any product made in small volume will look ridiculously expensive when you compare it to something like an automobile. If you could see the financials of most bike companies, I suspect you'd see their net profits are on par with other manufacturing companies of a similar size.

And there are much lower cost bikes out there. Of course there are $15k bikes but that isn't what the majority of cyclists are riding. $1-2k is probably more representative of an average sale and if you consider inflation, it's probably not a lot different than the $200.00 Schwinn from 1970.

robertorolfo

A lot of good discussion here guys, thanks for that...

Yeah, first off, nobody is shaming anyone for how they spend their money. This wasn't intended to be a discussion about who buys these bikes, or why, but just about their intrinsic value. And this isn't about envy, either. Believe me.

And yes, you and several other people bring up the important point that a item is often worth what the market will bear. Somebody out there is buying these bikes, so their market value can't be too far off. But, again, that's not really what I wanted to discuss.

Yes, the luxury sector is growing, and there are a lot of people out there with ridiculous sums of money, but that is a separate discussion for another time (and if you want to start a separate thread about it, I'll gladly contribute).

Ok, I see a lot of people bringing up $250K supercars and $90 bikes, but that's not a compelling counterargument. Even if those prices seem greater than the sum of the parts, look at what is involved there. Look at the sheer volume of expensive materials, of design and test time, of intricate assembly time.

But let's keep the comparisons in perspective. I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong about what a $15k motorcycle looks like. For right around that figure, you are looking at a Panigale 959, which is a fantastic bike. It isn't the very top of the range, but it isn't far off (and it will destroy any supercar on the road, but that's besides the point). It's a bike with leading edge technology, components and engineering, and it is made in Italy, by Italian assembly line workers. Spending $13k (yes, less than the bicycle price) will net you an R6 (or any of the Japanese 600's), which is also an excellent machine.

You want to race a motorcycle and be competitive? Spend half that much, put a little money into some choice parts and tires... and you can easily win in your bike category if you have the talent. Cars are a little different, but they have various classes for a reason. Point is, you really can't argue that $$ is fundamental to success in the lower levels. Just like with bicycles, talent/ability matters most. But this is wandering off topic.


Ok, this is closer to my original point, talking more about the intrinsic value of these bikes. And this is where I'm really struggling to see it. Even for a $5k bike (or below), I'm still having a hard time believing it is there.

Do you know how much thought and time goes into engineering an internal combustion engine? Heavy vehicle suspension? Do you know what it takes to machine the parts for a motorcylce engine that will to 12k or 15k rpm?

And we are talking about TREK here, one of the biggest bike producers out there. I can understand the Tommasinis, Bassos, Colnagos... of the modern world that need to mark things up a little more to compensate for their low volume and manufacturing methods, but Trek? And, again, we are going well below the $15k bike (because you can also buy a decent motorcycle for around the $7K mark).

This is what keeps running through my head: What do these bikes consist of? A frame, which is non-mechanical and non "complicated," even if the materials and processes used are quite advanced? A fork, which is the same as above? Integrated headset or whatnot, again not overly complicated, with a few simple bearings? Seatpost? Same thing once again.

Then you have the components for a fully built bike. Bottom bracket? Again, more simple bearings. Cranks and rings? See above for non-mechanical. A chain? Some cogs? Hubs? More simple bearings. Derailleurs? Ok, SLIGHTLY more complicated, but still. Ditto shift levers. Brakes? Simple. Electronic shift systems? Ok, a little more involved here, but nothing as complicated as an ABS braking system, or traction control.

I can go on, but I think you catch my drift. Now, I realize that on a good bike all of these things will be produced to a very high standard. But, again, these are simple parts. And do you think that the components of an engine, any engine (forget your 12K rpm motorcycle engine putting out 150hp per liter, consider an econo car engine), don't need to be produced to meticulous standards in order to ensure reliability, longevity and performance (also in regard to emissions control)?

So I am giving bicycles the benefit of the doubt. Smaller production runs, higher quality raw materials (dubious), higher overall manufacturing standards (dubious)... and I'm still not seeing how it adds up. Forget $15K or $10K. I'm not seeing how any bicycle is hitting the likes of 4 or 5 thousand dollars. (Funnily enough, this thread was originally started with the same idea regarding Trek's electric powered mountain bikes that cost around $5K, with the suggestion that it was crazy that they approached motorcycle and scooter prices, but then I saw the old fashion human powered road bikes...)

Again, starting to venture off topic, but I agree completely. Our society has created this idea that everyone is special, everyone is a star, and everyone deserves everything. Eventually it will catch up to us, but, again, that's another topic entirely.

jefnvk

How is it off perspective to compare like to like? How much does an F1 team invest in massaging CF parts in a wind tunnel? Do you honestly think Trek just has some interns sitting around coming up with their ideas? Is it that incomprehensible to you that maybe the "simple" parts arent as simple as you believe? Any racer in the motorsports world should know how much it costs to make something lighter, heck guys at my work fight over who gets the limited carbon fiber helmets that work wont buy cause they're four times the cost of the same thing in plastic that weighs a couple ounces more. Anyone who has been in racing should understand how expensive aero testing and massaging CF parts to the exact right point is.

You know no one is going out in World Superbike and riding a stock Panigale, right? That if Ducati offered a commercial version of their race bike, it'd cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars? I mean, its a couple years old (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/08/10/why-these-motogp-bikes-cost-2-million/31376337/), but why do top end race mototcycles cost $2 MILLION dollars? Why can't they just race on that Panigale? Sure, I can probably race a local track and win my class on a $7k bike, but that is a far cry off competing at the top levels of TdF, which that $15k bike is designed for. Heck, KTM occasionally offers factory versions of their Dakar bikes, and you're looking close to $50k. That is for a pretty technologically dumb motorcycle, and something else I'm sure goes to a healthy mix of top level competors and rich folk.

As far as the motorcycle world, you know what $15k doesn't get you new? A 1200GS BMW. Any Harley not from the Sportster lineup. Heck, just expand that to be most American bikes. Yamaha R1 and Honda CBR1000RR also are a nogo. I mean why do any of those cost near that, when I can buy brand new Enfields for $4-5k all day long?

In any case, we still get back to you picking literally the most expensive bike you could find, and pretending it is somehow average, and comparing it to stock offerings. Until you can at least admit that is what you are doing, there is really no point in continuing a conversation. A $15k bicycle is exactly akin to a $90k motorcycle or a six figure sports car, including the Ford GT, made by folks that will cancel a program over a few cent price increase. BTDT, yes I know the intricies of auto manufacturing, why cant the massive conglomerate Ford build a supercar less than $400k when they have F150s to prop up the budget? Oh thats right, programs are budgeted on their profitability, not the company as a whole.

HerrKaLeun

Did the OP google at all? 99.999999999999999% of bikes cost less than the one picked to make a moot argument. Like me saying "how come people chose canooing as a hobby because an aircraft carrier cost $6 billion"

CliffordK

Birch Bark Canoes?