ExPatTyke

OP - I completely understand your point of view, and I think it's similar to mine. I have a few road bikes, and with one exception they're all steel framed. Two of them have brifters, the others have downtube shifters. Here's the thing..for me, the whirr and click of a spot on gear change using downtube shifters means something. It's a link straight to the gears and wheels of the bike.

I've ridden carbon bikes, including one with DI2. Nice, very nice indeed in the case of a Look 765, but it's just not something I want as part of every ride.
I'm not against technology, I have modern LED lights, I wear modern clothing that's lightweight yet still keeps me warm and dry, and I like Strava, very much. But Strava doesn't have any effect on my ride. Pushing on the pedals, pulling on brake levers (yes, they're attached to rim brakes), getting gear changes spot on with downtube shifters does.

And for what it's worth, my car's an automatic. When I'm driving I just want to get to my destination. When I'm on the bike the quality of the journey matters as much as the destination.

Cyclist0108

I'm with Tim on this one. By "cable", are you referring to the wire, or do you mean it has a cable like a conventional derailleur? If so, where are you coming up with this?

I've had Di2 for about 5 years, and it is essentially maintenance-free. I spend a lot of time off-road with it under very dirty conditions. There is no intrusion. There is no cable to stretch or break. Every 5 or 6 months, I have to charge the battery.

I just read the post where you quoted someone having a shifting problem due (possibly) to water intrusion, presumably meaning water got it through the port where the wire (cable) enters the derailleur housing? I haven't immersed my derailleur in water, but I am fairly confident this is a rare problem, perhaps coupled with a damaged seal.

ogmtb

ca·ble
/ˈkābəl/
noun

1. 1.
   a thick rope of wire or nonmetallic fiber, typically used for construction, mooring ships, and towing vehicles.synonyms:rope, cord, line, guy, wire; More
2. 2.
   an insulated wire or wires having a protective casing and used for transmitting electricity or telecommunication signals.

Steve B.

Yes, well stated. The common experience with Di2 is that the system is an improvement over mechanical systems as dirt and water intrusions do not interfere with the the shifting system the way it can with mechanical

Good write-up here:

Electronic Shifting vs Mechanical Shifting For Mountain Biking

TimothyH

OK. I thought you meant cable as in shifter/derailleur cable.

There is a such thing as an "electrical cable."


-Tim-

winston63 

That does make sense. I'm not off road very often, so electronic shifting is sort of a luxury that doesn't really excite me all that much. In fact, the times I've ridden bikes with electronic shifting I've really missed the tactile feel of mechanical shifting and found that the minor benefits weren't worth it to me.

I do like disk brakes though, I ride in the rain all the time and find the stopping power is less impacted than with rim brakes.

Cyclist0108

It is deliberately disingenuous, just like morphing dirt intrusion to water intrusion.

(The original context of "cable" was cable actuation. Now it has morphed into a coaxial wire, whose only actuation is to turn on a motor.)

Kapusta

ogmtb

Nope.Before you get even more confused you should read again, from the beginning.

This was the silly claim that prompted my response:

"Dirt, gravel, steep terrain and messy conditions are the places where disk and Di2 completely outclass everything else."

p.s. That cable or wire can certainly suffer from dirt or water intrusion. At least according to the folks who make Di2, Shimano. To argue differently is truly disingenuous.

Cyclist0108

Mine, as Tim correctly points out, is sealed and impervious to water and dirt. I am sorry you experienced something else (or read an anecdote on the internet).

ogmtb

SHBR

Love it or hate it, almost everything will be electronic, at some point.

Resistance is futile.

I expect my analog bikes to outlive me, upgraditis, can be fatal.

Cyclist0108

I have also heard anecdotal reports that those butyl tube thingies some people put in their tires can also occasionally leak. Using the same sort of Kelleyanne Conway logic, the pneumatic tire is inherently unreliable.

ogmtb

It's not "Kelleyanne Conway logic," it's simply a fact. A fact that is at odds with your false claim that Di2 is impervious to dirt and water.

Wayne from Shimano was telling the truth when he wrote that Di2 isn't impervious to water and dirt, as you have falsely claimed.

I never claimed that Di2 is inherently unreliable.

Cyclist0108

It is directly from the universe of alternative facts.

Let's look at your quote:

He very clearly says the seal was damaged, so that water (not dirt, as you first claimed) intruded.

So what? If a bike inner tube gets damaged, air escapes. The point is that the word damage indicates that water intrusion is not normal.

Therefore, this does not contradict Tim's assertion. Nowhere did he (or I, or the Shimano guy) claim that Di2 was indestructible.

I realize Buy Noting Friday can be really boring, but find something better to get all worked up about.

TimothyH

No system is 100% reliable. Even the most meticulously designed and tested system will have failures.

The Di2 failures noted are statistical outliers.


-Tim-

ogmtb

Yeah, you really need to read, and understand, the entire quote that I shared. You either missed, or are ignoring, this part from the guy that Wayne was replying to. Another guy who has a Di2 system that isn't impervious. Hmmmm...

"After using it a year, I have nothing but praise for the Shimano Di2 system. This past weekend, however, I was in southern Indiana for a team training camp, and had a problem. We had some pretty serious rainstorms one day, and there were many deep water crossings we had to cross, as some of the roads were flooded. The water was about axle deep (and dang cold too!). The bike worked flawlessly.

The next day’s ride started off well, but after 20-30 miles the rear derailleur acted up. When I pressed the “Y” button (to grab a smaller tooth in the back), it actually shifted to a larger tooth. After pressing the button a few more times it would sometimes go one way and other times the opposite direction, and other times unresponsive. The “X” button was unresponsive at times too, but then all of a sudden it would work for a few shifts. I never noticed the “X” button shifting the derailleur both ways … just the “Y” button.

This whole time, the front derailleur worked perfectly. The battery was freshly charged. Anyways, after returning home to Wisconsin, and driving through high 80 degree temps with lots of wind, things must have dried out or something. When I got home, I put my bike in the stand, and it shifts perfectly again. Needless to say, I’m a little nervous about getting caught out in the rain now. Unfortunately, I don’t have the diagnostic tool Shimano makes for testing. I know the shop I bought the bike from doesn’t either. I’m guessing the tool wouldn’t find anything anyways, unless it acts up again.

Would you or someone at Shimano have an idea of what’s going on?
— Steve"

LOL. Tim claimed that Di2 was impervious. He even posted the definition.

If it's unable to by affected by rain, mud and continues to operate in the harshest conditions, then why have some folks had it fail, as described above? The mere fact that it has failed means it isn't impervious...

This is yet more confusion on your part. You're confusing me being amused while watching you twist yourself into knots trying to defend the indefensible - about your shifting system - with me being "worked up."

I'm laughing over here and have been since my first reply.

Cyclist0108

You are absolutely correct.

Your misinterpretation of an internet anecdote Trumps the combined experiences of everyone here who has used Di2 without incident for the last several years.

ogmtb

Still funny.

You and Tim claim Di2 is impervious.

I point to just two examples of Di2 not being impervious.

You claim I am misinterpreting what Wayne from Shimano says when he describes both instances of Di2 not being impervious.

Your experience does not erase the experience of others. Why do you have an inordinate amount of your self-worth tied up in your choice of shifting system? It's ok if sometimes it fails. It doesn't reflect on you personally. Really.

p.s. It's still odd that you claim Wayne from Shimano's description of his failure is unreliable (i.e. "an anecdote"). Unless you merely don't know what an anecdote is. Why would Wayne from Shimano lie?

wolfchild

Yes a time will come when humans will spend their entire life in front of some computer screen and will do absolutely nothing that requires any physical effort. Robots and electronic gadgets will do everything. Some cyclists will even have a personal robot to pedal and ride their bike for them so that they can just relax and watch the entire event on a screen and not have to do anything physical.

livedarklions

Wait a second, people choose to ride OFF pavement? Now I HAVE heard everything!

Lol.

livedarklions

This would be a lot better thread if people could stop themselves from hijacking it into the 97th debate over the virtues of different types of shifters.

Tim, how many times do the op and like-minded people such as myself have to state that "I don't want any electric power in the drive train even a little bit" is a matter of taste not logic before you realize saying "but electronic does x better" is irrelevant ?

Cyclist0108

Tires with damage leak air. Di2 seals with damage under rare circumstances can leak water. So what?


PS:

Keep spinning and twisting.


By the way, your reading comprehension is as under-developed as your grasp of logic. Wayne was speculating about the cause of the person's transient failure, based upon his own single observation. (That BTW brings us to the inherent problem of anecdotal evidence. Although I suspect Wayne got it right -- it is a simple and reasonable explanation for the same reason it is not a refutation of Tim's claim.)

BTW, I see you have been sparring with Tim in other threads too, so at least now I understand this is more about a personal grudge than Di2, so you'll have to wank off by yourself now.

Toodle pip.

ogmtb

This bit of oddness takes the cake! I had no idea you were wanking off this whole time. That's creepy. And takes your love for Di2 to a whole new level of weird.

p.s. "Di2 seals with damage under rare circumstances can leak water." Thank you for finally admitting that Di2 isn't impervious, as you and Tim have falsely, and repeatedly, claimed. The truth has set you free.

Cyclist0108

Stay classy.