rim brakes?
09-08-23, 08:07 AM
#51
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I feel you. I'm having a heck of a time trying to find a high quality penny farthing. The inexorable tide of safety bicycles seems to be taking over. I'd expect people here on BikeForums to agree with my opinion that the tried and true penny farthing is superior, but apparently that's not the case. Oh, well. I'll keep searching.
And you don't have to feel for me. I already have an awesome rim brake bike.
That I built myself.
09-08-23, 09:08 AM
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Light Bicycle, BTLOS, Elite Carbon and Nextie carbon wheels are just as good as Bontrager, Zipp, Boyd and HED.
09-08-23, 11:25 AM
#53
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Problem is that Light Bicycle, BTLOS, Elite Carbon and Nextie carbon wheels ED doesn't have the same quality of build than Bontrager, Zipp, Boyd and HED and I am sure it is the same for spokes. DT and Sapim spokes are superior in quality to chinese or taiwanese made spokes. Light Bicyle use DT hubs, a good thing with BTLOS you can choose the hub you want, Elite Wheels are used by team Kranj but no mention about the hub they use and Nextie proposes only disc brakes rims using nextie or DT hubs. Those brands are new to the carbon wheel market, I could also have cited Mavic, Roval, Enve, Corima, DT and Reynolds wheels which are quality wise much better products even though not the same price .
09-08-23, 01:12 PM
#54
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On the topic of build vs buy and cost -
Tarmac SL8 Pro - Ultegra Di2 = $8500
To build the same bike yourself, you'd need to spend $9335:
Tarmac SL8 framset = $3500
Robal Rapide CL II carbon wheels = $1750
S-Works Turbo, 2BR tires = $160
S-Works ultralight tubes = $16
Roval Rapide handlebar = $300
Body Geometry Power Pro saddle (hope you're sitting down for this...) = $325
Supercaz Super Sticky Kush tape = $45
Shimano Ultegra R8170 Di2 12sp disc brake groupset (crankset, FD, RD, shifters, brake calipers/hoses, chain, cassette) = $3084.99
Shimano threaded BB = $35
Shimano Ultegra RT-CL800 centerlock disc rotors = $120
There might be some savings in there if you get a deal on something, but you'd either be spending an extra $835, or downgrading something.
in many cases, building a bike involves moving wheels and groupsets over from other builds, and not buying everything at once.
Tarmac SL8 Pro - Ultegra Di2 = $8500
To build the same bike yourself, you'd need to spend $9335:
Tarmac SL8 framset = $3500
Robal Rapide CL II carbon wheels = $1750
S-Works Turbo, 2BR tires = $160
S-Works ultralight tubes = $16
Roval Rapide handlebar = $300
Body Geometry Power Pro saddle (hope you're sitting down for this...) = $325
Supercaz Super Sticky Kush tape = $45
Shimano Ultegra R8170 Di2 12sp disc brake groupset (crankset, FD, RD, shifters, brake calipers/hoses, chain, cassette) = $3084.99
Shimano threaded BB = $35
Shimano Ultegra RT-CL800 centerlock disc rotors = $120
There might be some savings in there if you get a deal on something, but you'd either be spending an extra $835, or downgrading something.
in many cases, building a bike involves moving wheels and groupsets over from other builds, and not buying everything at once.
09-08-23, 01:50 PM
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09-08-23, 02:06 PM
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Those are all current "buy now" prices, but Specialized has cut out the middle man and passed the savings on to themselves, so as far as I'm aware, street prices are list prices for them, particularly on something like the Tarmac SL8.
The Shimano stuff seems a little more variable. The pricing above for that groupset is from Chain Reaction.
The Shimano stuff seems a little more variable. The pricing above for that groupset is from Chain Reaction.
09-08-23, 02:31 PM
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I think the bike shortages of the last couple of years really accelerated the demise of the rim brake. They might have carried on a little longer without that. Even if companies had them in their lineup, I imagine they didn't make many of them. If I was buying a new road bike from stock bike, it would not be rim brake. I have a number of frames that I'm getting ready to build that are for rim brakes though.
My mountain bike would be stock if I didn't have the strange desire to use a dynohub on it. Which, in my defense, has saved me a couple of times when I underestimated how long it would take me to finish a ride. That started a cascade of changes, because I ordered a silver hub by mistake. So I got a new rear hub to match. And I decided if I was going to go with a new hub, I would convert to through axle.
My mountain bike would be stock if I didn't have the strange desire to use a dynohub on it. Which, in my defense, has saved me a couple of times when I underestimated how long it would take me to finish a ride. That started a cascade of changes, because I ordered a silver hub by mistake. So I got a new rear hub to match. And I decided if I was going to go with a new hub, I would convert to through axle.
09-08-23, 02:53 PM
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And you know this how, precisely?? Do you have some particular qualifications when it comes to assessing the integrity of bicycle frames and wheels?
09-09-23, 09:23 AM
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Trek was back in the days one of the biggest users of True Temper and Easton tubings which defined Trek's quality for many years. And same with the Alpha Aluminium SL, SLR, ZX and OLCV110-120HC carbon frames. Now you just see Alpha aluminium on Treks aluminium frames and no made in USA, afterall it happened also with Cannondale who until they made their CAAD8 Optimo frames which were the best aluminium frames you could buy alongwith Klein. Probably cutting costs for a cheaper and quicker manufacturing was the reason to made frames inTaiwan.
Last edited by georges1; 09-09-23 at 09:44 AM.
09-09-23, 02:38 PM
#60
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I have used some wheel brands that I should never have purchased (araya, alesa, alex rims, rigida, spinergy) and it taught me to stick for the very best and buy the very best. See what the pros use and which wheels brands on the market are the most reputed on the market, I often have the discussions with my bike tech that works on bikes over 35 years about wheels who isn't advising purchasing unknown brands. .I have been into bikes very young and when I was into road bike racing from 1996 to 1999 and later mountainbiking, I always checked at what was the grade of the tubing used in the frame, how well finished was the lugs bazing, the filet brazing or the welding regarding bike frames. As for frames everyone knows how well built were made USA made Treks just an example for sale 2004 Trek USA 1200 56cm C-T Alpha SL Superlight Aluminum Road Bike Frame CLEAN. Trek of todays are very good bikes , I don't deny it but it is not the same thing as the old ones made in the USA.
Trek was back in the days one of the biggest users of True Temper and Easton tubings which defined Trek's quality for many years. And same with the Alpha Aluminium SL, SLR, ZX and OLCV110-120HC carbon frames. Now you just see Alpha aluminium on Treks aluminium frames and no made in USA, afterall it happened also with Cannondale who until they made their CAAD8 Optimo frames which were the best aluminium frames you could buy alongwith Klein. Probably cutting costs for a cheaper and quicker manufacturing was the reason to made frames inTaiwan.
Trek was back in the days one of the biggest users of True Temper and Easton tubings which defined Trek's quality for many years. And same with the Alpha Aluminium SL, SLR, ZX and OLCV110-120HC carbon frames. Now you just see Alpha aluminium on Treks aluminium frames and no made in USA, afterall it happened also with Cannondale who until they made their CAAD8 Optimo frames which were the best aluminium frames you could buy alongwith Klein. Probably cutting costs for a cheaper and quicker manufacturing was the reason to made frames inTaiwan.
Likes For Germany_chris:
09-09-23, 03:06 PM
#61
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Sure. Among "normal" people.
I would think most people here on this Forum would build their own. Especially if they want to use parts that are now considered anomalous, like rim brakes.
Like I said, I haven't bought a bike off the rack since the mid-80s--really before I fully understood bikes--and most of the cyclists I've known are shop personnel who would never consider buying off the rack. I also forgot (how could I?) how cheap people on this Forum are. Obviously, my views are tainted by my own experiences. I apologize for thinking more people on this Forum would prefer to build for themselves.
Carry on everyone, searching in growing vain for the increasingly elusive off-the-rack rim-brake bike.
I would think most people here on this Forum would build their own. Especially if they want to use parts that are now considered anomalous, like rim brakes.
Like I said, I haven't bought a bike off the rack since the mid-80s--really before I fully understood bikes--and most of the cyclists I've known are shop personnel who would never consider buying off the rack. I also forgot (how could I?) how cheap people on this Forum are. Obviously, my views are tainted by my own experiences. I apologize for thinking more people on this Forum would prefer to build for themselves.
Carry on everyone, searching in growing vain for the increasingly elusive off-the-rack rim-brake bike.
We use to have a couple of websites that showed statistics of this sort of stuff, but both now require paid memberships, but when I was able to view the statistics about 4 or 5 years ago I remember reading that only 1.2% of the bikes sold in America are custom built, the rest were all factory built and equipped. While that was 4 to 5 years ago, I doubt much has changed in that regard other than Ebikes taking a huge uptick in sales could be undermining the sales of custom bikes? That would seem to make sense since really only the older population pays for expensive custom built bikes, but now that the baby boomers are getting older they are looking into and buying more Ebikes. But without seeing the actual statistics I'm guessing, and I'm not going to pay to see the statistics just to report an answer here. If someone else is a member of one of those statistics sites maybe they can tell us.
09-09-23, 03:20 PM
#62
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Problem is that Light Bicycle, BTLOS, Elite Carbon and Nextie carbon wheels ED doesn't have the same quality of build than Bontrager, Zipp, Boyd and HED and I am sure it is the same for spokes. DT and Sapim spokes are superior in quality to chinese or taiwanese made spokes. Light Bicyle use DT hubs, a good thing with BTLOS you can choose the hub you want, Elite Wheels are used by team Kranj but no mention about the hub they use and Nextie proposes only disc brakes rims using nextie or DT hubs. Those brands are new to the carbon wheel market, I could also have cited Mavic, Roval, Enve, Corima, DT and Reynolds wheels which are quality wise much better products even though not the same price .
But here are some responses...
- you generalize and offer up nothing of substance to defend your claims that one group doesn't have the same build quality as another group.
- btlos and light both offer a ton of options to spec wheels how each person wants. It's pretty cool, actually.
- Sapim and Pillar(btlos offered spokes) are not junk. They are not poorly made. You are just making baseless claims if you think they are bad. You even mention Sapim as good, and btlos offers them, but you still include btlos as a brand that can't be trusted/isn't great. They offer DT hubs, which you like, they offer sapim spokes, which you like, but the wheels don't have the same quality as a bunch of brands you mention.
Excuse me if I view your post as worthless.
- Zipp wheels have been notoriously inconsistent in build quality. It goes back 15 years at least. Zipp hubs have long been a commonly referenced joke when it comes to quality.
- Mavic is a has been wheel brand right now. What is Mavic offering that fundamentally changes wheel quality and performance? Seriously, it's a has been wheel brand that lived on its name and continued to offer old tech for way longer than it should have.
09-09-23, 03:37 PM
#63
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My poorly made carbon wheels with carbon spokes on my crappy pool finished Taiwanese frame.
09-09-23, 04:20 PM
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So much misinformation and generalization that it's probably not worth responding to every bad take.
But here are some responses...
- you generalize and offer up nothing of substance to defend your claims that one group doesn't have the same build quality as another group.
- btlos and light both offer a ton of options to spec wheels how each person wants. It's pretty cool, actually.
- Sapim and Pillar(btlos offered spokes) are not junk. They are not poorly made. You are just making baseless claims if you think they are bad. You even mention Sapim as good, and btlos offers them, but you still include btlos as a brand that can't be trusted/isn't great. They offer DT hubs, which you like, they offer sapim spokes, which you like, but the wheels don't have the same quality as a bunch of brands you mention.
Excuse me if I view your post as worthless.
- Zipp wheels have been notoriously inconsistent in build quality. It goes back 15 years at least. Zipp hubs have long been a commonly referenced joke when it comes to quality.
- Mavic is a has been wheel brand right now. What is Mavic offering that fundamentally changes wheel quality and performance? Seriously, it's a has been wheel brand that lived on its name and continued to offer old tech for way longer than it should have.
So much misinformation and generalization that it's probably not worth responding to every bad take.
But here are some responses...
- you generalize and offer up nothing of substance to defend your claims that one group doesn't have the same build quality as another group.
- btlos and light both offer a ton of options to spec wheels how each person wants. It's pretty cool, actually.
- Sapim and Pillar(btlos offered spokes) are not junk. They are not poorly made. You are just making baseless claims if you think they are bad. You even mention Sapim as good, and btlos offers them, but you still include btlos as a brand that can't be trusted/isn't great. They offer DT hubs, which you like, they offer sapim spokes, which you like, but the wheels don't have the same quality as a bunch of brands you mention.
Excuse me if I view your post as worthless.
- Zipp wheels have been notoriously inconsistent in build quality. It goes back 15 years at least. Zipp hubs have long been a commonly referenced joke when it comes to quality.
- Mavic is a has been wheel brand right now. What is Mavic offering that fundamentally changes wheel quality and performance? Seriously, it's a has been wheel brand that lived on its name and continued to offer old tech for way longer than it should have.
09-09-23, 04:48 PM
#65
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Fully built factory bikes that you would want to buy almost always has components that you would be best off to wear out rather than change immediately. You would probably make incorrect changes on everything if you didn't use it all and consider carefully what to change and why.
Of course you're probably just kidding and I'm wasting my time.
I build ALL of my bikes from scratch and I usually make more compromises than the factory does. They don't have to worry if they can get specific parts and I do.
09-09-23, 04:52 PM
#66
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Yup, I regret posting. All you did was misunderstand my comment and inconsistently apply your own standards for 'quality'.
I know what you said. I was pointing out that you claim btlos is an inferior brandand lower build quality, yet btlos uses hubs(DT) that you specifically call out as quality and it uses spokes(sapim) you specifically call out as quality. That's why I mentioned sapim...because btlos uses them and you say the are good. Does that clear things up?
My point was to show you that you are claiming a brand produces a lower quality wheel build even though it uses components you specifically say are good, and even though you have no actual experience with their rims or final build.
How do you not see that as absurd?
Haha, what a totally arbitrary way to measure quality.
1- Bontrager wheels have been notoriously inconsistent in quality for decades now. Decades. Not an overstatement. Yet they are an OEM brand. They are an OEM brand because Bontrager is owned by Trek so of course Trek uses that brand! My gosh, is this really not understood by you?
2- Trek, Giant, Specialized, Cannondale, and many more brands have their own component brand for stock components. Of course these companies will prioritize using their brands for OEM.
3- How many brands are slapping Zipp wheels on their bikes as OEM spec? Or Boyd wheels? Or better said, what % of new bike sales included Zipp or Boyd wheels as OEM wheels? You mentioned those as great trustworthy brands, yet they arent exactly killing it in the OEM wheel world.
Mavic wheels still sell well? How well? Really- are all the Mavic wheel sales right by you? I don't see them anywhere around me, they are not even an afterthought on message boards or in cycling media, and they aren't exactly being spec'd as OEM wheels(remember how you just said that's a key way to determine if a wheel brand makes good wheelset?). Heck, is Mavic even being sold in the US again? They were, then weren't, then we're and shut down, then weren't, and I heard they will be in the US again, but not sure when.
Yeah sure- they still sell well. That wasn't your original reason for naming Mavic, and it also isn't even true, but why be consistent...right?
So Zipp gets a pass for selling really expensive wheels that have a relatively high rate of poor quality, but btlos doesn't get a pass even though they don't have a reputation for having had to improve the hubs or wheel build quality?
Um...that's absurd.
You did this very thing. You generalized and claimed a wheel brand is bad, even though it is continually working to improve quality and offerings/options.
Btlos has released multiple products in the last few years. They offer multiple finishes on their rims, offer multiple brake track designs for rim brakes, offer a ton of different rim profiles for various disciplines, and offer both hooked and hookless wheels.
Buddy, you need to stop. This is ignorance in full light and it isn't a good look.
I know what you said. I was pointing out that you claim btlos is an inferior brandand lower build quality, yet btlos uses hubs(DT) that you specifically call out as quality and it uses spokes(sapim) you specifically call out as quality. That's why I mentioned sapim...because btlos uses them and you say the are good. Does that clear things up?
My point was to show you that you are claiming a brand produces a lower quality wheel build even though it uses components you specifically say are good, and even though you have no actual experience with their rims or final build.
How do you not see that as absurd?
If these new wheels brands were so stellar regarding quality, they would have been chosen as OEM equipment from the biggest bike brands. Please name which bike brands are using BTLOS and light as OEM wheels , I am curious to know.
1- Bontrager wheels have been notoriously inconsistent in quality for decades now. Decades. Not an overstatement. Yet they are an OEM brand. They are an OEM brand because Bontrager is owned by Trek so of course Trek uses that brand! My gosh, is this really not understood by you?
2- Trek, Giant, Specialized, Cannondale, and many more brands have their own component brand for stock components. Of course these companies will prioritize using their brands for OEM.
3- How many brands are slapping Zipp wheels on their bikes as OEM spec? Or Boyd wheels? Or better said, what % of new bike sales included Zipp or Boyd wheels as OEM wheels? You mentioned those as great trustworthy brands, yet they arent exactly killing it in the OEM wheel world.
I will agree with you that Mavic is not what it used to be but it still sells well.
Yeah sure- they still sell well. That wasn't your original reason for naming Mavic, and it also isn't even true, but why be consistent...right?
As for Zipp you must be talking about these SRAM recalls older Zipp 88 front hubs (article from 2015) but the hubs and wheels have well improved over time as can attest these positive reviews, Zipp 404 Firecrest review , 2022 Zipp 404 Firecrest are deep aero wheels for all, plus Actual Weights , Zipp 303 S wheels: First ride review, 2020 Zipp 404 Road Bike Wheelset Review . This more or less contradicts your description of Zipp being notoriously inconsistent in build as well your statements of Zipp quality hubs which have long been a commonly referenced joke when it comes to quality which are not true. There was also a debate here about on opinions about Zipp Firecrest wheels.
Um...that's absurd.
You can't generalize a wheelbrand of being bad if it is innovating and striving every day for a better quality product. At last but not least Mark Cavendish’s custom Specialized McLaren venge at the Giro used ZIPP 808s and Cavendish was a fervent user of Zipp and won races with these wheels.
Btlos has released multiple products in the last few years. They offer multiple finishes on their rims, offer multiple brake track designs for rim brakes, offer a ton of different rim profiles for various disciplines, and offer both hooked and hookless wheels.
Buddy, you need to stop. This is ignorance in full light and it isn't a good look.
09-09-23, 05:38 PM
#67
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Yup, I regret posting. All you did was misunderstand my comment and inconsistently apply your own standards for 'quality'.
I know what you said. I was pointing out that you claim btlos is an inferior brandand lower build quality, yet btlos uses hubs(DT) that you specifically call out as quality and it uses spokes(sapim) you specifically call out as quality. That's why I mentioned sapim...because btlos uses them and you say the are good. Does that clear things up?
My point was to show you that you are claiming a brand produces a lower quality wheel build even though it uses components you specifically say are good, and even though you have no actual experience with their rims or final build.
How do you not see that as absurd?
Haha, what a totally arbitrary way to measure quality.
1- Bontrager wheels have been notoriously inconsistent in quality for decades now. Decades. Not an overstatement. Yet they are an OEM brand. They are an OEM brand because Bontrager is owned by Trek so of course Trek uses that brand! My gosh, is this really not understood by you?
2- Trek, Giant, Specialized, Cannondale, and many more brands have their own component brand for stock components. Of course these companies will prioritize using their brands for OEM.
3- How many brands are slapping Zipp wheels on their bikes as OEM spec? Or Boyd wheels? Or better said, what % of new bike sales included Zipp or Boyd wheels as OEM wheels? You mentioned those as great trustworthy brands, yet they arent exactly killing it in the OEM wheel world.
Mavic wheels still sell well? How well? Really- are all the Mavic wheel sales right by you? I don't see them anywhere around me, they are not even an afterthought on message boards or in cycling media, and they aren't exactly being spec'd as OEM wheels(remember how you just said that's a key way to determine if a wheel brand makes good wheelset?). Heck, is Mavic even being sold in the US again? They were, then weren't, then we're and shut down, then weren't, and I heard they will be in the US again, but not sure when.
Yeah sure- they still sell well. That wasn't your original reason for naming Mavic, and it also isn't even true, but why be consistent...right?
So Zipp gets a pass for selling really expensive wheels that have a relatively high rate of poor quality, but btlos doesn't get a pass even though they don't have a reputation for having had to improve the hubs or wheel build quality?
Um...that's absurd.
You did this very thing. You generalized and claimed a wheel brand is bad, even though it is continually working to improve quality and offerings/options.
Btlos has released multiple products in the last few years. They offer multiple finishes on their rims, offer multiple brake track designs for rim brakes, offer a ton of different rim profiles for various disciplines, and offer both hooked and hookless wheels.
Buddy, you need to stop. This is ignorance in full light and it isn't a good look.
I know what you said. I was pointing out that you claim btlos is an inferior brandand lower build quality, yet btlos uses hubs(DT) that you specifically call out as quality and it uses spokes(sapim) you specifically call out as quality. That's why I mentioned sapim...because btlos uses them and you say the are good. Does that clear things up?
My point was to show you that you are claiming a brand produces a lower quality wheel build even though it uses components you specifically say are good, and even though you have no actual experience with their rims or final build.
How do you not see that as absurd?
Haha, what a totally arbitrary way to measure quality.
1- Bontrager wheels have been notoriously inconsistent in quality for decades now. Decades. Not an overstatement. Yet they are an OEM brand. They are an OEM brand because Bontrager is owned by Trek so of course Trek uses that brand! My gosh, is this really not understood by you?
2- Trek, Giant, Specialized, Cannondale, and many more brands have their own component brand for stock components. Of course these companies will prioritize using their brands for OEM.
3- How many brands are slapping Zipp wheels on their bikes as OEM spec? Or Boyd wheels? Or better said, what % of new bike sales included Zipp or Boyd wheels as OEM wheels? You mentioned those as great trustworthy brands, yet they arent exactly killing it in the OEM wheel world.
Mavic wheels still sell well? How well? Really- are all the Mavic wheel sales right by you? I don't see them anywhere around me, they are not even an afterthought on message boards or in cycling media, and they aren't exactly being spec'd as OEM wheels(remember how you just said that's a key way to determine if a wheel brand makes good wheelset?). Heck, is Mavic even being sold in the US again? They were, then weren't, then we're and shut down, then weren't, and I heard they will be in the US again, but not sure when.
Yeah sure- they still sell well. That wasn't your original reason for naming Mavic, and it also isn't even true, but why be consistent...right?
So Zipp gets a pass for selling really expensive wheels that have a relatively high rate of poor quality, but btlos doesn't get a pass even though they don't have a reputation for having had to improve the hubs or wheel build quality?
Um...that's absurd.
You did this very thing. You generalized and claimed a wheel brand is bad, even though it is continually working to improve quality and offerings/options.
Btlos has released multiple products in the last few years. They offer multiple finishes on their rims, offer multiple brake track designs for rim brakes, offer a ton of different rim profiles for various disciplines, and offer both hooked and hookless wheels.
Buddy, you need to stop. This is ignorance in full light and it isn't a good look.
Do BTLOS and the other newly brands have ISO certification regarding their production standards ? I don't think so but Mavic is ISO 9001, 14001 and 50001 certified. Zipp hookless rims meet specifications as outlined by ISO4210 certiification and ETRTO. Zipp also works directly with tire manufacturers to gain compatibility.
1) I am well aware about Bontrager and Trek so I am learning nothing new
2) I knew about it
3) Zipp was used by the professional Team Movistar and by other professional race teams before, they are often used by triathletes or purchased by people who want an upgrade to a standard wheel. Just in case a link about Zipp history and their achievements
Well I am in Europe and I see a lot of cyclists whether Mountain Bikers and Road Bike Racer using Mavic wheels. Maybe in the US , it is a different thing but where I am . I haven't seen Mavic retailer for USA but for Canada. Mavic list of retailers show that the Mavic are sold in most of countries, probably it will be back in the USA, I don't know. Mavic has shown enough of it know how with Cosmic Carbon and the Rsys.
That your opinion about Zipp's quality unless you had a pair of Zipp wheels which had problems, the magazine reviews I posted were more than positive about the Zipp wheels produced nowadays. When I had a problem with a brand that failed me personnally, I don't recommend it . Zipp offers also a lot of various wheels for various disciplines so what's your point ? Please keep the ignorance comment out of the discussion.
09-09-23, 05:53 PM
#68
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Do BTLOS and the other newly brands have ISO certification regarding their production standards ? I don't think so but Mavic is ISO 9001, 14001 and 50001 certified. Zipp hookless rims meet specifications as outlined by ISO4210 certiification and ETRTO. Zipp also works directly with tire manufacturers to gain compatibility.
1) I am well aware about Bontrager and Trek so I am learning nothing new
2) I knew about it
3) Zipp was used by the professional Team Movistar and by other professional race teams before, they are often used by triathletes or purchased by people who want an upgrade to a standard wheel. Just in case a link about Zipp history and their achievements
1) I am well aware about Bontrager and Trek so I am learning nothing new
2) I knew about it
3) Zipp was used by the professional Team Movistar and by other professional race teams before, they are often used by triathletes or purchased by people who want an upgrade to a standard wheel. Just in case a link about Zipp history and their achievements
The only reason I mentioned that is because you couldn't manage to think of it as an answer to your own question.
But now I see you didn't even follow and understand why I posted it.
Seeing as how I don't feel like playing the moving goalposts game any longer, unless you have some actual points to make with data to support your claim that btlos makes questionable quality wheelsets, I am out on this conversation.
Well I am in Europe...
Do you guys have the game 'whack-a-mole' at fairs and arcades? Cuz that sure is how this discussion feels- you keep adjusting your argument and each gets whacked back down.
09-09-23, 06:50 PM
#69
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ISO certification doesn't guarantee the quality of a product, and the lack of ISO certification doesn't mean a company produces inferior products.
Likes For tomato coupe:
09-09-23, 07:21 PM
#70
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09-09-23, 08:37 PM
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BTLOS complies with the ISO and ERTO standards for wheel sizing. These are not the same thing as ISO 9001 which is more about quality management systems and manufacturing processes.
ISO 9001 is meant to insure that production has a high level of traceability and uniformity of product. While the ISO 9001 standard can be used to produce a higher quality product it does not guarantee that a product will be of high quality.
But BTLOS does advertise that they meet EN 14781, which means they are legally able to be sold in much or Europe.The British Standards Institute provides the following summary:
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The standards for sanctioned racing events are created by the sanctioning organization, which normally means the UCI. I don't see BTLOS claiming to be UCI approved. On the other hand, my Winspace wheels are UCI approved.
ISO 9001 is meant to insure that production has a high level of traceability and uniformity of product. While the ISO 9001 standard can be used to produce a higher quality product it does not guarantee that a product will be of high quality.
But BTLOS does advertise that they meet EN 14781, which means they are legally able to be sold in much or Europe.The British Standards Institute provides the following summary:
BS EN 14781:2005 covers the test methods applicable in the design and manufacture of racing bikes. It was developed to ensure the strength and durability of individual parts as well as of the bicycle as a whole, demanding high quality throughout and consideration of safety aspects from the design stage onwards.
This European Standard specifies safety and performance requirements for the design, assembly and testing of racing bicycles and sub-assemblies, and lays down guidelines for manufactures instructions on the use and care of such bicycles.
BS EN 14781:2005 applies to racing bicycles intended for high-speed amateur use on public roads, and on which the saddle can be adjusted to provide a maximum saddle height of 635 mm or more.
.This European Standard specifies safety and performance requirements for the design, assembly and testing of racing bicycles and sub-assemblies, and lays down guidelines for manufactures instructions on the use and care of such bicycles.
BS EN 14781:2005 applies to racing bicycles intended for high-speed amateur use on public roads, and on which the saddle can be adjusted to provide a maximum saddle height of 635 mm or more.
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The standards for sanctioned racing events are created by the sanctioning organization, which normally means the UCI. I don't see BTLOS claiming to be UCI approved. On the other hand, my Winspace wheels are UCI approved.
09-09-23, 10:07 PM
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I'll have to look at the next large group ride I do in October, what is being ridden. I saw mostly disc brakes at the last event where there were maybe 70 cyclists. I plan on keeping my 2011 Cannondale with rim brakes and will undoubtedly upgrade the drivetrain to 11-speed (~$800) and get new rim brake clincher wheels before I get a new bike with disc brakes. My left knee could use the 11-34 cassette, have a 12-30 now. This bike will hopefully last me another 10+ years based on my mileage use. Parts will still be available, but any new bike by then will all be disc brakes. My next bike though will be an E-bike with disc brakes, probably 3-5 years away at least.
09-10-23, 06:28 AM
#73
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I have used some wheel brands that I should never have purchased (araya, alesa, alex rims, rigida, spinergy) and it taught me to stick for the very best and buy the very best. See what the pros use and which wheels brands on the market are the most reputed on the market, I often have the discussions with my bike tech that works on bikes over 35 years about wheels who isn't advising purchasing unknown brands. .I have been into bikes very young and when I was into road bike racing from 1996 to 1999 and later mountainbiking, I always checked at what was the grade of the tubing used in the frame, how well finished was the lugs bazing, the filet brazing or the welding regarding bike frames. As for frames everyone knows how well built were made USA made Treks just an example for sale 2004 Trek USA 1200 56cm C-T Alpha SL Superlight Aluminum Road Bike Frame CLEAN. Trek of todays are very good bikes , I don't deny it but it is not the same thing as the old ones made in the USA.
Trek was back in the days one of the biggest users of True Temper and Easton tubings which defined Trek's quality for many years. And same with the Alpha Aluminium SL, SLR, ZX and OLCV110-120HC carbon frames. Now you just see Alpha aluminium on Treks aluminium frames and no made in USA, afterall it happened also with Cannondale who until they made their CAAD8 Optimo frames which were the best aluminium frames you could buy alongwith Klein. Probably cutting costs for a cheaper and quicker manufacturing was the reason to made frames inTaiwan.
Trek was back in the days one of the biggest users of True Temper and Easton tubings which defined Trek's quality for many years. And same with the Alpha Aluminium SL, SLR, ZX and OLCV110-120HC carbon frames. Now you just see Alpha aluminium on Treks aluminium frames and no made in USA, afterall it happened also with Cannondale who until they made their CAAD8 Optimo frames which were the best aluminium frames you could buy alongwith Klein. Probably cutting costs for a cheaper and quicker manufacturing was the reason to made frames inTaiwan.
You have still not provided -- in this or subsequent posts -- a single shred of evidence for this assertion.
I stopped buying drum brakes when they went to those new-fangled self-adjusters.
09-13-23, 08:06 AM
#75
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FTR I have BTLOS and Light Bicycle Mountain bike wheels. Harsh environment that puts them to the test. Zero issues with either. Also have numerouls friends that have Light Bicycle on their bikes. Also zero issues. Rims aren't cracking or wobbling or anything like that.
Also have a set of HED wheels on my fat bike. For a while the "big brand name" HED with all the certifications was having problems with their fat bike wheelsets cracking. ISO certification doesn't mean much.
Also have a set of HED wheels on my fat bike. For a while the "big brand name" HED with all the certifications was having problems with their fat bike wheelsets cracking. ISO certification doesn't mean much.