Advice on likely my last bike
10-04-23, 08:27 PM
#27
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 23 Times
in
18 Posts
I’m similar to you in age size and back pain issues.
my soma saga (steel) is no longer available, but it has tall steer tube which I use a lot of, I use trekking bars with brakes on the widest part for better control off of asphalt, and a short stem of about 50 or 60 mm.
you could also use swept back bars like the jones which will bring your hand position closer.
I just completed a 600km trip and I’ve never had a more comfortable bike.
my soma saga (steel) is no longer available, but it has tall steer tube which I use a lot of, I use trekking bars with brakes on the widest part for better control off of asphalt, and a short stem of about 50 or 60 mm.
you could also use swept back bars like the jones which will bring your hand position closer.
I just completed a 600km trip and I’ve never had a more comfortable bike.
10-05-23, 12:37 AM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2022
Location: USA - Southwest PA
Posts: 3,100
Bikes: Cannondale - Gary Fisher - Giant - Litespeed - Schwinn Paramount - Schwinn (lugged steel) - Trek OCLV
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1401 Post(s)
Liked 1,886 Times
in
1,085 Posts
Do some reading on the evolution of the mountain bike. It came into force towards the end of the 70's and a number of the pioneers are forum participants, you can get a lot of info from the proverbial horse's mouth.
The short version from a buyer's perspective; after realizing that mountain biking was not a fad but a multi million new market a lot of the manufacturers jumped in. I think the first mass produced mountain bike was the Univega Alpina but that same year many others followed. Early bikes were pretty much 26" versions of what you would recognize as a touring bike; slightly oversize tubing (for a road bike) with long geometries (for stability downhill), with a straight top tube rigid diamond frame. The thing about the early ones is that manufacturers were not pulling punches on quality, they attempted to gain market share by building top of the line models with double and triple butted steel and top of the line components. As the decade progressed then the pressure was on to 'cheapen' the builds in order to be more competitive with all the me-too[s that sprouted like mushrooms after a spring shower.
I have converted early mountain bikes into 650b rigs, they ride like a dream. On stock configurations they are just as great for trail bikes. Nowadays everybody seem to think that without suspension it is not really a mountain bike. They need to watch a cyclocross race to see what people do on rigid skinny tire bikes.
This is my 1984 Mount Fuji bike, typical of the mass produced quality bikes with double butted tubing and nicer hardware. It is completely stock so I'm keeping it as is
[img]https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_20230923_092331_2f5742f7bfae8602748b312f9afb092ced1b5af8.jpg
The one I converted to a 650b tourer was a Panasonic P7500, Tange Prestige tubing. I would love to find me a Univega Alpina Ultima.
The short version from a buyer's perspective; after realizing that mountain biking was not a fad but a multi million new market a lot of the manufacturers jumped in. I think the first mass produced mountain bike was the Univega Alpina but that same year many others followed. Early bikes were pretty much 26" versions of what you would recognize as a touring bike; slightly oversize tubing (for a road bike) with long geometries (for stability downhill), with a straight top tube rigid diamond frame. The thing about the early ones is that manufacturers were not pulling punches on quality, they attempted to gain market share by building top of the line models with double and triple butted steel and top of the line components. As the decade progressed then the pressure was on to 'cheapen' the builds in order to be more competitive with all the me-too[s that sprouted like mushrooms after a spring shower.
I have converted early mountain bikes into 650b rigs, they ride like a dream. On stock configurations they are just as great for trail bikes. Nowadays everybody seem to think that without suspension it is not really a mountain bike. They need to watch a cyclocross race to see what people do on rigid skinny tire bikes.
This is my 1984 Mount Fuji bike, typical of the mass produced quality bikes with double butted tubing and nicer hardware. It is completely stock so I'm keeping it as is
[img]https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_20230923_092331_2f5742f7bfae8602748b312f9afb092ced1b5af8.jpg
The one I converted to a 650b tourer was a Panasonic P7500, Tange Prestige tubing. I would love to find me a Univega Alpina Ultima.
why the conversion to 650b on the vintage rigid mountain bikes ?
why change from the 26” wheelsets ?
10-05-23, 01:19 AM
#29
I’m a little Surly
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Near the district
Posts: 2,422
Bikes: Two Cross Checks, a Karate Monkey, a Disc Trucker, and a VO Randonneur
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 699 Post(s)
Liked 1,294 Times
in
647 Posts
Why not a Disc Trucker with its extended head tube?
10-05-23, 02:35 AM
#30
Senior Member
Rim on the left is 26" with regular mud tires, rim on the right is 650b with 35mm tires. You can see that the rim on the right is bigger but the end size is identical.
Last edited by abdon; 10-05-23 at 02:48 AM.
Likes For abdon:
10-05-23, 05:35 AM
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,211
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 1,467 Times
in
1,144 Posts
Because it allows you to run the exact same tire diameter on a smaller and faster rolling tire without changing the bike geometry nor having to pedal more revolutions for the same distance. That last bit is more of a cadence thing than anything.
Rim on the left is 26" with regular mud tires, rim on the right is 650b with 35mm tires. You can see that the rim on the right is bigger but the end size is identical.
Rim on the left is 26" with regular mud tires, rim on the right is 650b with 35mm tires. You can see that the rim on the right is bigger but the end size is identical.
10-05-23, 10:02 AM
#32
Senior Member
A number of dia Compe canti brakes have 5mm of travel off the box. Clearing the sharp angles with a file can gain you 2mm. Setting them in a slight angle can gain you a few more mm. But if the post is moved to the half way point they can be made to fit either standard. On the other hand there are cantilever brakes out there with crazy levels of adjustment, that would be the easiest way to set things up.
If you want I can mount both 26" and 650b tires in an unmolested 26" standard frame so you can see how far a dia compe canti has to stretch.
10-05-23, 11:10 AM
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,211
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 1,467 Times
in
1,144 Posts
Well obviously brakes with enough reach or the posts get relocated. If having the posts relocated it is better to split the difference, moving them about 6mm instead of the full 11mm. That way most brakes with a modicum of lateral adjustment can reach either.
A number of dia Compe canti brakes have 5mm of travel off the box. Clearing the sharp angles with a file can gain you 2mm. Setting them in a slight angle can gain you a few more mm. But if the post is moved to the half way point they can be made to fit either standard. On the other hand there are cantilever brakes out there with crazy levels of adjustment, that would be the easiest way to set things up.
If you want I can mount both 26" and 650b tires in an unmolested 26" standard frame so you can see how far a dia compe canti has to stretch.
A number of dia Compe canti brakes have 5mm of travel off the box. Clearing the sharp angles with a file can gain you 2mm. Setting them in a slight angle can gain you a few more mm. But if the post is moved to the half way point they can be made to fit either standard. On the other hand there are cantilever brakes out there with crazy levels of adjustment, that would be the easiest way to set things up.
If you want I can mount both 26" and 650b tires in an unmolested 26" standard frame so you can see how far a dia compe canti has to stretch.
It is not a simple swap of the wheels.
10-05-23, 11:21 AM
#34
Senior Member
I don't think it was implied to be a simple wheel swap. Depending on the canti brakes it could be, but most likely not.
If I though you were just making a point instead of asking a question (a very valid point though) I could have answered with the above instead of trying to go over how it was done.
If I though you were just making a point instead of asking a question (a very valid point though) I could have answered with the above instead of trying to go over how it was done.
10-05-23, 12:12 PM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 1,852
Bikes: Lemond '01 Maillot Jaune, Lemond '02 Victoire, Lemond '03 Poprad, Lemond '03 Wayzata DB conv(Poprad), '79 AcerMex Windsor Carrera Professional(pur new), '88 GT Tequesta(pur new), '01 Bianchi Grizzly, 1993 Trek 970 DB conv, Trek 8900 DB conv
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 810 Times
in
471 Posts
..would seem to be a whole lot easier just to put 26 inch fast street (urban, city, touring) tires on the 26 inch rims and call it a day.
10-05-23, 02:53 PM
#36
Senior Member
Here a pic from before getting the fenders dialed in.
On 35mm 650b tires, could go fatter, or it can sport fairly chunky 26" tires without the fenders. The Dia Compe cantis have enough adjustment for either.
10-05-23, 06:48 PM
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,211
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 1,467 Times
in
1,144 Posts
In an earlier post in this thread, I said:
Since most older mountain bikes are rim brakes with canti brake mounts, converting to a different wheel size can result in having your brake pads in the wrong place.
Apparently you did not connect that earlier post to my later post as being from the same person. I hear enough people talking about swapping wheels in disc brake bikes, that I assumed that you were thinking it was an easy swap, just like with disc hubs.
10-05-23, 06:51 PM
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,211
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 1,467 Times
in
1,144 Posts
10-06-23, 11:58 AM
#39
Senior Member
Sorry.
In an earlier post in this thread, I said:
In an earlier post in this thread, I said:
Since most older mountain bikes are rim brakes with canti brake mounts, converting to a different wheel size can result in having your brake pads in the wrong place.
Apparently you did not connect that earlier post to my later post as being from the same person. I hear enough people talking about swapping wheels in disc brake bikes, that I assumed that you were thinking it was an easy swap, just like with disc hubs.Last edited by abdon; 10-06-23 at 12:16 PM.
10-07-23, 11:31 AM
#40
Senior Member
Here we go. I didn't find my box with the Tektro cr720's but their Oryx have the same reach. Here's one next to the venerable Dia Compe 980:
As you can see they put all the added play on the reach side. The Dia Compe has 5mm of travel, from the top of my head I don't remember how much travel the Tektro has.
Here's the Tektro on an unmodified specialized frame. At the top of the adjustment it fits as it should. I'm not a fan of them for this application as it changes the angles, softening the breaking power. If I wasn't a Dia Compe fanboy I would be using the longer arm Tektro CR720 instead.
And here is the Dia Compe, trying to reach the rim like a little kid reaching for a cookie jar in a counter. I would not recommend this.
Worth noticing is the nice dialed in clearance. The tire is a 35mm Grand Bois. You could go fatter and still have room for fenders. The picture after that is of a skinny tire on 26" rims. You can probably squeeze your hand in that gap.
I'm an idiot and a snob (but one with welding and brazing skills) I rather relocate the posts so I can use the vintage Dia Compe stuff. But it is possible to do the conversion without having to modify the frame nor compromise breaking power. I would go with the longer arm Tektro CR720 cantis to compensate for the angles produced from having the pads at the top of the range.
As you can see they put all the added play on the reach side. The Dia Compe has 5mm of travel, from the top of my head I don't remember how much travel the Tektro has.
Here's the Tektro on an unmodified specialized frame. At the top of the adjustment it fits as it should. I'm not a fan of them for this application as it changes the angles, softening the breaking power. If I wasn't a Dia Compe fanboy I would be using the longer arm Tektro CR720 instead.
And here is the Dia Compe, trying to reach the rim like a little kid reaching for a cookie jar in a counter. I would not recommend this.
Worth noticing is the nice dialed in clearance. The tire is a 35mm Grand Bois. You could go fatter and still have room for fenders. The picture after that is of a skinny tire on 26" rims. You can probably squeeze your hand in that gap.
I'm an idiot and a snob (but one with welding and brazing skills) I rather relocate the posts so I can use the vintage Dia Compe stuff. But it is possible to do the conversion without having to modify the frame nor compromise breaking power. I would go with the longer arm Tektro CR720 cantis to compensate for the angles produced from having the pads at the top of the range.
Last edited by abdon; 10-07-23 at 07:41 PM.
10-09-23, 08:46 AM
#41
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 23 Times
in
18 Posts
My setup pictured was arrived at after my original setup, with the brake levers where the ergo grips are now, proved very awkward to handle on any kind of path/trail requiring quick brake access and careful steering. The new setup offers excellent control and braking. So much so I want to replicate it on a swept back bar for my next vintage bike build.
11-04-23, 04:18 PM
#43
Junior Member
If I were buying a touring bike new today, I would go for a rivendel Gus Boots Wilson for traditional rim brakes and 3x drive train or a Jones SWB complete with smooth tires for more modern disc brakes and 1x drive train.
https://www.rivbike.com/products/gus-boots-willsen
https://jonesbikes.com/jones-plus-swb-v2-complete-bike/
https://www.rivbike.com/products/gus-boots-willsen
https://jonesbikes.com/jones-plus-swb-v2-complete-bike/
